Written by the reviewer from the ASR + docket; [verbatim-ASR] = quoted machine transcript; [paraphrase] = reviewer's wording, not a quote.
0:02 So President Keppel is unable to be here this evening,
0:05 so you guys are stuck with me to chair this meeting.
0:08 So I apologize in advance for imitation.
0:12 First order of business for the Committee of Whole,
0:14 I'll go ahead and call it to order for March 30, 2026.
0:19 First order of business is the review and approval
0:21 of the March 16, 2026 Committee of the Whole.
0:26 Without objection, they are approved.
0:29 Great. The next item of business we have is the only item
0:32 of business we have this evening, which is a communication
0:37 from the Planning Department regarding the Madison-Hillyard
0:39 intersection study that was completed by a terrorist,
0:42 and I believe we also have someone
0:45 from my terrace available to answer our questions.
0:47 I know, you know, obviously there's a fatality
0:50 at this intersection, and then it's, you know,
0:54 if you counted the Facebook and social media comments
0:57 about this intersection, it probably eclipses
0:58 every other intersection in the city.
1:01 So interested in really, you know, things that we can do
1:04 that are grounded in sound engineering practices.
1:06 So at this point, I'll throw it over.
1:08 I don't know if it's, it looks like it's public works
1:12 and planning, so I'll let you all leave.
1:15 Yes, Council Member Bullock.
1:16 Before jumping in, I emailed the planning staff
1:19 and Director Gordon this question beforehand,
1:21 but the report refers to something that I wanted
1:25 to just make sure we understood
1:26 which was the stop, the Madison Avenue.
1:28 I infer there's a soon to happen Madison Avenue-wide
1:34 schedule, excuse me, traffic timing recalibration.
1:37 Is that what that is?
1:39 But maybe if you could just give a sentence prior
1:42 to jumping into this study of this one part
1:44 of Madison, that would be great.
1:47 Yes, Council Member Bullock, thank you.
1:49 So as part of the Hilliard-Madison intersection study,
1:54 a complete separate project is the Madison Avenue
1:58 stop study, so the Madison Avenue stop study
2:01 is basically a signal timing optimization project.
2:05 We have not implemented that yet on Madison
2:08 because we're waiting on everything to do
2:11 with the Hilliard-Madison intersection.
2:13 So a brief, quick summary will be yes,
2:16 the Hilliard-Madison intersection will be included
2:19 with the stop study, but anything in regards
2:22 to that specific project has not been done yet
2:25 because we are waiting for the next steps
2:28 with Hilliard-Madison.
2:31 Mr. Chair, a quick follow on.
2:33 So are you saying the study that's going
2:36 to be Madison Avenue-wide, the separate study
2:39 that partly overlaps, has yet to be completed
2:42 or it has been completed, we have results,
2:44 but we're not gonna implement the results
2:46 until we talk about what we're talking about tonight?
2:49 Has yet to be completed.
2:52 Best guesstimate, would it normally,
2:53 independent of this, would that normally be a 2026
2:56 or a 2027 thing or what?
2:58 It would have been completed already.
3:01 Okay, so once that's rolling,
3:03 that'll be multiple months?
3:06 Yeah, I mean, there's no set time for that right now.
3:08 There's, prior to us getting into the roots
3:12 of the Madison-Hilliard intersection,
3:13 there's a lot of things to consider
3:15 and the stop study is certainly one of them.
3:18 I would say out of everything,
3:19 that's probably something that's gonna happen
3:22 no matter what, but the entire process
3:26 for the Madison-Hilliard intersection
3:28 is gonna take some time.
3:29 I would say months on end
3:31 and that's gonna include this study as well.
3:34 So, sorry for all the follow-up,
3:36 but so the Madison Avenue full-length study,
3:41 your thought is that's gonna be out of hold
3:45 until we know what we're doing
3:46 with Madison and Hilliard?
3:48 Yes, because you don't want to commit to doing
3:55 a traffic signal optimization study
3:58 all the way down Madison, stop at Hilliard Madison,
4:02 don't do anything, start over again,
4:04 and then do the rest of Madison
4:06 all the way down to Riverside to then go back
4:08 and have to redo the study all over again
4:10 to now include whatever it may be
4:13 at the Hilliard-Madison intersection.
4:16 So, what it was decided upon by ITERIS,
4:19 Public Works and Engineering, all of us in general,
4:22 all on the same page is when we implement
4:25 the recommendations at Hilliard-Madison,
4:29 we will then include doing the stop study
4:32 on Madison from 117th all the way down
4:35 to Riverside as well.
4:37 Because it's best to knock it all out at one time
4:40 than to a la carte and piecemeal everything together.
4:43 That's helpful context, and once we're ready
4:46 to rock and roll, that'll take what, 18 months, 24 months?
4:49 I don't have an exact set timeframe right now.
4:52 There's a lot to consider.
4:55 As you can see with the short-term recommendations,
4:57 there's equipment that needs to get in,
5:00 there's equipment that needs to get put up,
5:02 there's upgrades that need to be performed,
5:03 there's a lot of floating parts right now.
5:07 And with lead times and things of that nature,
5:10 I don't want to commit to a set timeframe.
5:13 Understanding the sensitivity of the intersection,
5:17 all intersections are sensitive, I understand that.
5:20 But we will certainly look to get this completed
5:22 as soon as possible, I just don't want to commit
5:24 to a set timeframe right now.
5:25 Sure, it sounds like it could,
5:27 normally you'd gone for one season to do the study,
5:30 sometimes it might go into two seasons
5:33 if things aren't perfect.
5:34 I'm not talking about the Hilliard-Madison,
5:36 I'm talking about the whole.
5:38 I would suspect we should be able
5:39 to get everything completed before the end of the year.
5:42 Okay, all right, thanks.
5:46 Now it's your turn, Dave, Assistant Director Boss, I think.
5:49 I'm done, I'll see you guys in a bit.
5:52 It took Director Gordon nine minutes to say,
5:55 probably by the end of the year.
5:58 That was a great prequel.
6:00 I just appreciate the thoroughness.
6:03 Well, thank you, Mr. Chair, members of council.
6:06 Appreciate the chance to come back.
6:09 This'll be the fourth presentation for this study,
6:14 since it was completed in November.
6:17 We submitted it to council, I think,
6:20 I believe before the end of the year.
6:23 We reviewed it with Planning Commission,
6:26 and then we spent two meetings
6:28 with the new case board reviewing this,
6:35 And we do have Mr. John Albeck,
6:37 formerly of Iteras, he's the traffic engineer
6:39 that conducted the study on our behalf.
6:44 So I can follow up afterwards
6:46 with the results of Planning Commission and case.
6:50 Basically, both organizations recommended
6:54 that we implement the short-term recommendations.
6:58 Both were supportive of the long-term recommendations.
7:01 I believe, if I'm remembering correctly,
7:04 just the language out of Planning Commission
7:06 was that, obviously, they were interested
7:07 in implementing the long-term recommendations
7:11 as soon as possible, but knowing that,
7:16 and we can talk through some of those,
7:17 just the inherent complexities with some of those things
7:20 like curb bump-outs and things,
7:22 especially the value of having,
7:24 we had one of our new commission members
7:25 as an RTA planner, and we spent about 30 minutes
7:29 walking through the complexities of curb bump-outs
7:32 and how complex it can be, given RTA's 25 route down there,
7:38 the bike lanes, and all the other things
7:39 that you have to consider.
7:41 It's not just as easy as redesigning
7:43 and redrawing the curb lines.
7:44 There's an awful lot to be considered.
7:47 And then the secondary implications
7:49 that those long-term recommendations
7:51 would have on traffic flow,
7:53 when you have a bus that's stopping
7:55 in the primary and only through travel lane.
7:58 And so there's, I say that as we consider
8:03 short-term recommendations to kind of jump quickly,
8:08 just to put in your head that we are supportive
8:10 of the short-term recommendations.
8:12 I believe our approach now is to get those out
8:15 as quickly as we possibly can get those things rolled out
8:19 and then allow them to have an impact and an effect
8:24 before we then look to jump to make additional changes
8:28 in the intersection, because a lot of the changes
8:29 that we'll walk through tonight are signal changes,
8:33 they're signal timing changes
8:35 that are gonna significantly change the level of service
8:38 in this intersection, and that,
8:40 when you talk about changing the level of service,
8:43 complete streets and everything else that we have,
8:47 this is a rebalancing of priorities, if you will,
8:52 for all modes of transportation.
8:54 And that happens across a lot of different ways
8:57 to do that, and we'll talk, and you're well aware
9:00 of some of the physical changes that we've made
9:02 in the intersections to highlight pedestrian,
9:05 bicycle travel, those types of things,
9:07 and better physically delineate
9:09 or highlight those modes of travel.
9:11 But the signalized changes that are being made
9:15 are kind of part and parcel to that.
9:17 When you implement something like
9:19 leading pedestrian interval, it has an impact
9:21 on all the other signal of the phases
9:25 of that intersection.
9:27 And so what Mr. Albeck will walk you through
9:28 is kind of the impacts of those, as you consider those.
9:32 And so it is not, I guess my point is
9:35 that is not an insignificant thing to roll that out
9:38 and allow it some time for people to kind of adjust
9:42 and see how it works over time
9:44 without jumping to the next thing
9:48 of those long-term things too quickly
9:51 before we've had a chance to kind of analyze
9:53 and assess how the short-term recommendations
9:56 have had their impact.
9:58 And so I guess with that as just kind of
10:00 a quick aside prologue, I will hand it over
10:04 to Mr. Albeck, and he can walk you through
10:08 kind of the summary of the study
10:10 and answer any initial questions you have,
10:12 and then if that's okay, Mr. Chair,
10:13 we can go from there.
10:17 John, if you can hear me, if you wanna just start,
10:20 just provide a quick overview
10:22 or a summary of the study.
10:26 I didn't know, did you plan to share a screen
10:28 or anything, Dave, or just would you like me
10:30 to verbally go ahead and give an update?
10:35 The study is up, and so I can just,
10:39 I can go to whatever you want,
10:40 or if you want me to share the screen
10:41 so you can see it too, I can do that.
10:44 Sure, sure, that would be great, thank you.
10:47 And maybe we could just focus on figure 21, Dave.
10:50 I think that might be the easiest way
10:51 to just kind of summarize the changes that are proposed.
11:02 Looks like it's coming up here.
11:10 And first of all, Dave, scrolling to that page
11:12 and everything, really do appreciate the opportunity
11:15 to work with the city.
11:17 It's been a great study.
11:19 It's been great working with the staff and everything.
11:22 And I do think that we have some short-term
11:26 types of improvements that can be done
11:28 in a relatively quick timeframe
11:31 to really make some tangible benefits for the operation.
11:35 As David mentioned, there's always a cost to this
11:38 in terms of if we're gonna improve safety here,
11:41 we might be impacting the efficiency
11:44 and some of the delays.
11:45 Now we've done studies, we've done modeling
11:48 to show what those impacts are gonna be,
11:51 and I'll kind of touch on those as we go through here.
11:53 So this is kind of our infographic
11:55 that lays out the short and the long-term recommendations.
11:59 I know David mentioned some of the long-term
12:02 and through some of our other meetings,
12:03 we've got a couple other recommendations
12:05 that could be looked at in the future
12:07 and have kind of been added
12:08 to the list of those things.
12:09 But the short-term recommendations are truly things
12:12 that can be implemented quite quickly
12:15 to make some of these effective safety improvements.
12:20 Because I heard before, yes,
12:22 this is a highly visible location.
12:25 Clearly from what you can even see on the screen there
12:27 with the skewed angles and the five legs,
12:30 there's a lot of challenges there.
12:32 So the first item, if you're looking at the list
12:34 in the lower left-hand corner
12:36 of the short-term recommendations,
12:38 this has the most dramatic impact.
12:41 First, in terms of safety,
12:43 which is what we all really wanna achieve,
12:45 but it's the one that's also going to create more
12:48 of that delay for our vehicular traffic in these cases.
12:53 So what item one is, is right now, as it is today,
12:58 if you were making a left turn off of Madison,
13:01 either onto Hilliard or even if you're a,
13:04 I'll call it westbound left, to go onto Carabelle,
13:09 pedestrians, you at some point
13:12 will get a green arrow and then a green circular indication.
13:17 And during that green circular indication,
13:20 pedestrians could be crossing in that crosswalk.
13:23 You can already see from the length of the geometry,
13:27 the size, the skew of this intersection,
13:29 it can be very hard to judge the gaps in the traffic,
13:33 where the pedestrians are, where the bicycles are.
13:36 It can be very difficult for drivers to navigate that.
13:40 And in fact, one of the accidents that occurred,
13:42 not the fatality, but one of the accidents that occur
13:46 was a westbound left striking a pedestrian
13:50 in that crosswalk on Carabelle.
13:52 So what this improvement's going to do
13:55 is going to greatly improve the interaction
13:58 of left turning vehicles with bicycles and a pedestrian.
14:03 So what will, the indication will change
14:06 from that five section signal head
14:09 to a three section signal head
14:11 will be a red arrow, yellow arrow, green arrow.
14:15 So the only time a left turner can go is on a green arrow.
14:20 When that green arrow is on from them,
14:22 the pedestrian will be in a solid don't walk
14:25 and the opposing through will also be red.
14:28 So they'll never have to look to yield to anyone.
14:32 Dramatic improvements on the safety,
14:34 they won't have to judge that and guide it.
14:36 Now what's the downside?
14:38 The delay in the waiting time for that left turn
14:43 Now, instead of being able to continue,
14:46 you know, on a lower volume time of day
14:48 when there's not much traffic out there,
14:51 you're not sitting there waiting for a green arrow.
14:54 You're able to proceed, as it is today,
14:57 you are able to proceed on that green
14:59 circular indication.
15:00 The downside though is again,
15:02 what I said before, you're having to judge gaps.
15:05 This is really going to improve safety.
15:09 Our levels of service and our delay
15:11 and the stop program that was talked about earlier
15:13 that's gonna be implemented somewhat concurrently
15:17 with this, we're redoing the timing
15:21 with the other intersections nearby
15:25 to help mitigate the delay increases
15:29 that we'll experience there.
15:30 So that's item one.
15:32 We will show some significant benefits
15:35 for the safety of the multimodal forms
15:38 of traveling out there.
15:41 The second item is another signal timing change.
15:46 So real quick, item one can be implemented quickly,
15:49 relatively quickly in-house staff.
15:52 There's a cost associated with it.
15:54 The staff to be out there will locate
15:57 these indications, but a signal head can be put up.
16:00 Other things need to be changed,
16:02 move some of the other signals
16:03 can be a relatively quick implementation.
16:06 Item two is a signal timing change
16:09 which your current equipment can do.
16:12 It doesn't require major equipment updates.
16:16 What that is is what's known
16:17 as a leading pedestrian interval.
16:20 So as an example, pedestrians crossing
16:24 from I'm gonna say the Northeast corner
16:26 to the Northwest corner, going from,
16:30 I forgot what the office,
16:31 I think it's a gosh, an insurance agent's office
16:35 over there, over to the park
16:37 if they're crossing like that.
16:39 What will happen is prior to the Westbound
16:44 or the Eastbound getting their green light
16:47 for the vehicles, there'll be a pause.
16:49 There'll be a four to five second delay
16:52 and the walk signal will come up
16:54 for that Westbound pedestrian first.
16:56 Give them the opportunity to get into that crosswalk,
17:00 control the crosswalk, be more visible
17:02 for the right turning vehicles
17:04 in these leading pedestrian intervals,
17:06 LPIs have shown dramatic, significant improvements
17:11 in safety for pedestrians, giving them that head start.
17:14 Now, the downside is once again,
17:17 we're holding up those vehicles
17:19 for four or five seconds.
17:22 And that of course will create
17:24 some little bit of extra delay.
17:26 Now if a pedestrian doesn't push the button,
17:28 the LPI doesn't activate every single time.
17:31 So it's when the pedestrians are present,
17:34 which again, this is a pedestrian location
17:39 like much of Lakewood.
17:40 So they will be there,
17:42 but we'll give them that leading pedestrian interval.
17:45 for every single pedestrian crossing you see there.
17:49 I gave an example of pedestrians crossing hill,
17:52 you're going Westbound.
17:53 However, this will be for all of the crosswalks
17:56 that you see there.
17:58 Couple of the things the city's already done,
18:00 but these are strategies that have been proven
18:03 to show safety improvements.
18:04 So I'll just kind of quickly hit them.
18:06 Item three, high visibility crosswalks.
18:09 Those crosswalks that you see there today,
18:11 those fit that need much more easy to see.
18:16 Adding the green pavement markings
18:18 to clearly designate that where the bicycle lanes,
18:23 even on Hilliard in the Northeast and Southwest,
18:27 if you will, directions, there's even delineation.
18:31 Those delineators that are out there
18:33 to separate the bike lane from the vehicular traffic also.
18:40 So that's item four there.
18:43 Item five, again, these are in place,
18:46 the no turn on red signs.
18:48 When you're a vehicle,
18:50 you will not be allowed to turn on a red indication
18:54 for a lot of the reasons.
18:55 These skewed angles, lots of issues going on there.
18:59 Through one of our other meetings, it came up
19:01 and we're gonna, as we are implementing
19:03 some of these strategies,
19:04 we wanna do some field spot locations again of,
19:08 hey, maybe that sign could be relocated
19:11 just to make sure it's clear
19:13 that that's for this direction.
19:15 Now, the no turn on red is for all five directions.
19:19 Okay, that will, and those are in place.
19:23 Item six is what you have at Detroit and Warren right now
19:29 is an accessible pedestrian signal, APS, if you will.
19:35 This is generally intended for the visually impaired.
19:39 It'll have tactile,
19:40 it'll have a button with the tactile arrow
19:43 with a locator tone.
19:44 The visually impaired then can use that
19:48 to hear audible cues to say,
19:51 okay, to cross Madison Avenue.
19:54 So they'll get those audible cues
19:56 when the walk signal's on.
19:57 Walk signal's on for Madison Avenue
20:00 or to cross Madison Avenue.
20:03 They'll get this kind of information.
20:05 Even for the non-visually impaired,
20:08 it helps with compliance
20:10 because there is some kind of positive feedback
20:13 to that pedestrian that,
20:14 hey, I know my pedestrian,
20:17 when I push that button,
20:18 I know that it recognizes me.
20:21 It's not just pushing the silver button that's out there
20:23 and you don't know if it even has registered you.
20:26 So APS helps with compliance also.
20:29 When I say compliance,
20:30 I don't mean that in a derogatory.
20:33 But because pedestrians will cross against the don't walks,
20:37 this will help them, let them know,
20:39 yes, I have been registered.
20:41 I will get my walk indication.
20:45 It's a special kind of equipment, a special button.
20:47 That will also be for all of the directions.
20:51 So that will be implemented in the near to also.
20:57 During the stop program and even during this,
20:59 item seven there is updating all of the timing intervals
21:03 to meet the most current standards.
21:05 What do I mean by timing intervals?
21:07 How long is the yellow interval for the vehicles?
21:10 How long is a red clearance?
21:13 Some may not be familiar with that term, red clearance.
21:16 Forgive me for defining it.
21:18 A red clearance is simply a portion of time
21:21 when all directions have a red interval.
21:26 The intention there is if a vehicle has crossed
21:28 into the intersection, right when their signal turns red,
21:32 we don't want any conflicting movements
21:34 getting their green until that vehicle has cleared
21:37 or walk or walk until they have cleared that intersection.
21:42 So there is at all these intersections
21:44 a red clearance interval
21:45 and we'll update these to the latest Ohio manual
21:49 on uniform traffic control devices standard.
21:52 So that's the item there and that will be done
21:54 through the stop program also.
21:57 By the way, that item seven will be done
21:59 at all intersections along Madison through stop, okay?
22:03 So just a quick side note.
22:07 Signal coordination, I kind of mentioned this.
22:09 This again goes back to the stop program.
22:12 So the adjacent intersections to this,
22:14 what we don't want is this Madison and Hilliard
22:18 running in isolation.
22:20 What can then quickly happen
22:22 and what I mean by isolation, just doing its own thing.
22:25 If we do that, then vehicles westbound
22:31 might back up into the adjacent intersection there
22:34 if it's not working in conjunction with that
22:37 in the other intersections around there.
22:39 So we'll provide coordination system operation
22:42 where we try to provide smoother flow
22:46 for vehicles traveling.
22:48 And that's the big intent of the stop program
22:51 is to provide that smoother flow,
22:54 have positive reinforcement to try to maintain.
22:59 we're timing it for 25 miles an hour.
23:01 You go 50 miles an hour, don't do that.
23:05 they're just rushing down to a red light sooner.
23:08 You do 25 miles an hour,
23:10 you should get a smoother ride
23:12 through the system with fewer stops.
23:14 So this single coordination that will be implemented
23:17 to enforce positive speed.
23:20 Now I say that and I've watched drivers my whole career,
23:25 just drive and stop, drive and stop, drive and stop.
23:28 But hopefully maybe some education
23:31 through these programs will help too.
23:33 So that was item eight.
23:35 And then item nine is because we've converted,
23:39 item one, back to one,
23:40 because we've converted the eastbound
23:42 and the westbound left to that protected only left,
23:46 we anticipate and we model that the length of the cars,
23:50 I'm sorry, not the length of the cars,
23:52 the lengths of the queues,
23:53 the queues of the vehicles that are stacking up
23:55 into those left turn lanes,
23:57 we need a little bit more room.
24:00 So what we don't want is for Orchard Grove
24:05 to be turning left and having to turn left
24:08 So that should be converted to a right out only
24:13 if you're exiting a right out only type of operation.
24:18 And those are the short-term recommendations.
24:21 Dave, would you like me to hit
24:23 on the long-term ones right now?
24:27 Yeah, you can go ahead.
24:28 That's fine, thank you.
24:30 I don't wanna get long-winded on you.
24:31 I know it's late and all.
24:33 The long-term and again,
24:34 there's been some other things here.
24:36 Dave kind of mentioned this,
24:40 Item 10, if you're looking at the graphic there,
24:42 that's to tighten up those curb radius
24:44 to slow down the vehicles to turn right
24:46 to give those pedestrians a shorter crossing distance
24:50 which really helps with a lot of things.
24:53 If that was easy, it would be short-term.
24:56 That has a high cost.
24:57 There's utility coordination.
24:59 There's water flow.
25:00 There's so many things.
25:02 It's a lot more than meets the eye.
25:05 It can have some very positives,
25:07 but that's something we don't want to
25:10 not do the short-term things
25:12 while we're waiting for this year's long project
25:15 to do curb bulb outs.
25:19 We would like to get these short-term ones,
25:22 but keeping on our list,
25:23 hey, as you're programming out your improvements,
25:26 this is something that can be looked at
25:28 because now we're starting to get into the
25:30 potentially millions of,
25:32 I won't even give cost, but much more costly.
25:36 Item 11, now your control equipment
25:39 doesn't currently do this,
25:41 but there are systems out there
25:43 where you can have much more intelligent systems
25:46 that, as an example,
25:48 if a pedestrian was in the crosswalk
25:51 while the don't walk was on,
25:53 which I know we don't want them doing that,
25:56 but they will do that,
25:58 we could have some detection equipment
26:00 that will sense the presence of,
26:03 with radars and other detection systems,
26:06 quote unquote, see that a pedestrian's in there.
26:09 That detection equipment is communicating
26:11 with your control equipment.
26:13 It knows, hey, pedestrian's there,
26:16 but their walk light is off.
26:18 What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna illuminate a sign
26:21 for the conflicting vehicles
26:22 that say pedestrian and crosswalk.
26:25 I'm also going to illuminate an LED light
26:28 to really spotlight that crosswalk
26:31 because there's a pedestrian there.
26:33 Yes, I know, they're not supposed to be,
26:36 Let's give that driver that type of information.
26:39 Pedestrian and crosswalk illuminate the light.
26:42 Could even take it another step.
26:43 Again, this requires new equipment,
26:46 detection, potentially even a new structure
26:49 because the way the structure is out there now
26:52 with diagonally into the street,
26:54 we'd have to look at even new structures
26:56 because we could be into the hundreds of thousands
26:59 at some point, but as you're updating systems,
27:02 it's something to consider moving forward
27:04 with some technology.
27:06 So some cool things that we can do there,
27:08 but it does come with the cost.
27:12 Item 12 is just something to keep on our list.
27:15 I like the idea of item one,
27:18 which was the protected only.
27:20 That would be the green, yellow, red arrows.
27:23 If in the future it's discovered
27:25 that that's a little bit too painful
27:27 for the left turners during certain times of the day
27:29 when the pedestrians aren't present,
27:32 there is a signal indication out there
27:33 being used throughout Ohio.
27:35 ODOT's kind of a fan of this,
27:37 which is known as a flashing yellow arrow.
27:40 And I won't go into great details on that right now,
27:43 but it is a mode of operation
27:45 where you could at times of the day
27:48 run the left turns as what suggestion one is,
27:53 They get a red arrow, yellow arrow, green arrow.
27:57 But during other times of day
27:59 and or even when there's no pedestrians presence
28:03 we could allow them to go with a flashing yellow arrow.
28:08 Now, I do not want to see
28:11 the first flashing yellow arrow in Lakewood
28:14 go at this location.
28:16 It would have to be tried at other locations
28:18 prior to ever doing it at such a visible high profile.
28:23 But as it potentially gets implemented at other locations,
28:28 it is a strategy that yes, it's good for safety
28:32 and can help minimize a little bit
28:34 of the impacts of the delay.
28:35 And then the last one here would be auxiliary signals
28:43 And right now, because of where the structures are,
28:46 it's not a real good fit for this.
28:48 But all that really means everyone,
28:50 sorry, I kind of glossed over that,
28:51 is additional signal indications for the vehicles
28:55 that are not on the overhead mast arms.
28:58 These are actually on the vertical upright portion.
29:02 So for instance, if you're behind a truck,
29:06 you might not see that signal indication
29:09 that's up on the mast arm.
29:10 You can, though, often see the one that's off
29:13 to the right on that upright location
29:16 that's on the side of the road.
29:19 Because of the skewed angles
29:21 and because of where the structures are,
29:23 we would like to look at this in the future,
29:26 but it's not as easy as just saying,
29:27 hey, just go throw some up there today.
29:30 But there are some benefits to doing that.
29:34 So yeah, that's a high-level summary
29:37 of what we're looking to do.
29:39 But I'll just reiterate,
29:40 these short-term recommendations are things
29:43 that can be implemented in a very,
29:47 relatively short timeframe.
29:49 Anything else, Dave?
29:52 I think, Mr. Chair, depending on any questions,
29:54 we can go into discussion.
29:56 Yes, and I do want to make sure we get around
29:59 to case and planning commission's comments as well.
30:03 But thank you, this is really helpful,
30:05 and I'm sure my colleagues will have questions as well.
30:08 Three or four come to mind for me.
30:13 By the way, thank you.
30:14 I think data and kind of a bit of an overview
30:17 of data and kind of a plan are a good place to start.
30:21 And this intersection has always been challenging.
30:25 The question I have is kind of the short-term
30:29 Number 10, which is the kind of curb bulb-outs,
30:33 bump-outs, whatever you want to call them,
30:38 so I understand that doing new curbs,
30:41 running new sidewalks, cutting in,
30:44 looking at stormwater drainage patterns
30:46 where stormwater catch basins are,
30:47 those kinds of things are very complicated.
30:50 What I am curious about is I know
30:52 at the Detroit-Sloan Valley Parkway intersection,
30:56 there was some paint and planters
30:58 that kind of necked it down to start.
31:01 I believe there was some of the casino funds,
31:03 the county casino funds funded that project.
31:06 And it kind of started with a non-huge investment.
31:12 It was an investment of $100,000, $200,000 of paint
31:16 and planters that kind of started the process
31:19 of necking it down.
31:21 And then you don't really have to mess
31:23 with stormwater flows.
31:25 They're removable if it doesn't work.
31:27 Is that something that could work here
31:29 in your experience?
31:32 No, very familiar with the intersection
31:35 that you pointed out that had the treatments there.
31:40 Yes, there can be some improvements
31:43 to doing things like that.
31:45 Unfortunately, I feel that the pedestrians
31:48 still feel kind of vulnerable out in this area
31:51 that's just a painted area.
31:52 The painted requires a lot of maintenance,
31:55 even if we put in temporary objects.
31:57 Now, I'm not suggesting that it can't be tried.
32:00 That comes with, it's certainly never as good as,
32:05 saying I'm sure what everyone knows is obvious
32:07 if clearly do the full build-out.
32:11 There are some things that can be done.
32:14 Like you had mentioned at the previous location,
32:18 I'll kind of defer to Chris and Dave
32:22 for their experience on how they thought
32:24 that the Detroit Avenue operation worked.
32:34 Yeah, I think there's, this is Dave, John,
32:37 just I think there's obvious benefits to testing out
32:41 those long-term recommendations,
32:42 especially on bump-outs with something temporary.
32:48 My concern at this point is just,
32:50 the primary thing is the interaction
32:52 of the bus transit lines, the stop,
32:56 especially on the westbound line,
32:59 that stop is right at the intersection
33:01 of Hilliard and Madison.
33:04 It's kind of an awkward location.
33:07 And so I would just,
33:08 I think even before temporary measures,
33:10 that is something that we would definitely
33:12 need to get worked out,
33:13 is the interaction of transit and the bike lanes there.
33:18 But no, I'm all for working through
33:23 the temporary measures before you do anything permanently.
33:25 I think it makes a ton of sense.
33:27 Yeah, and even, I mean, planters or planter boxes
33:31 could be removed during snowplow season
33:33 when you want more room on the road
33:36 for that type of behavior.
33:38 Dr. Gordon, you look like you're gonna speak.
33:39 Yeah, I would also keep in mind
33:42 that there's a lot of things that are considered here.
33:46 You gotta look at turning radius as well.
33:50 You know, you got fire trucks,
33:51 you got refuse trucks.
33:53 Again, not that I'm all about safety because I am.
33:57 But there's a lot of things to consider
34:00 specifically in this intersection.
34:03 Perfect example, if you're driving eastbound
34:06 on Hilliard and you wanna go,
34:08 or excuse me, on Madison,
34:09 you wanna make that turn on a Hilliard,
34:11 that's gonna be a tough turn for a large vehicle
34:16 without going in oncoming traffic.
34:19 And you could argue the same,
34:22 potentially going westbound on Madison,
34:25 looking to make the turn on a Hilliard.
34:28 Again, not that paint or things of that nature aren't,
34:32 you know, you're able to drive over it
34:34 and things like that.
34:35 But I also have to take into consideration maintenance.
34:39 You know, what are we looking at with maintenance?
34:41 How frequently would that need to be addressed?
34:43 I understand planner boxes.
34:45 Again, it goes back to
34:46 who's maintaining these planner boxes,
34:48 who's putting them out there,
34:49 who's removing them, things of that nature.
34:54 So again, not that I'm not against anything like that.
34:57 I just, my personal opinion,
35:00 I just think for this intersection itself
35:02 and looking at the data,
35:04 looking at the crash data,
35:05 looking at a lot of things that are going on,
35:08 I'd be anxious to see
35:09 after the short-term recommendations how that goes.
35:13 And then if there's additional steps to take at that point,
35:16 if these issues are not corrected with that,
35:20 you know, taking those at that time.
35:23 Again, that's solely my opinion.
35:26 Yeah, it sounds a little bit like
35:27 there's a little hesitation
35:28 with the recommendation in general,
35:31 less, you know, because you're discussing
35:35 you know, turn radiuses and such.
35:37 I'm assuming that these,
35:39 that number 10 takes into account those things,
35:44 I think number 10 coming from John
35:46 was just an in general type thing.
35:48 I mean, a lot of this would need to be surveyed.
35:51 If you were to look into something permanent,
35:52 you got to look at drainage.
35:55 You would have to look into the bike lanes.
35:56 You got to look into RTA.
35:58 You got to look in other utilities that are there.
36:01 you would have to look in to turn radius.
36:04 There would be a lot of things
36:05 that would need to be considered.
36:06 I think this was just a general overview,
36:09 John can correct me if I'm wrong,
36:11 on potentially what could be done there.
36:14 I will say that for the curb bump outs
36:18 that we proposed on Northland,
36:19 that took a lot of work.
36:21 Not that we're not willing to do the work.
36:23 Of course we are, that's what we do.
36:25 But it took a lot of work.
36:26 It took a lot of changes.
36:29 It took a lot of looking into,
36:31 just for a curb bump out there.
36:34 And that took multiple discussions with police,
36:37 with fire, with refuse, with ice and snow,
36:41 snow plows being able to make the turns
36:42 and things of that nature.
36:44 Drainage, we had to add a catch basin.
36:47 There's a lot to consider than what's on paper.
36:50 Yeah, and you guys got the experience from Northland.
36:55 And that's why we're patiently waiting
36:57 to see how that one goes.
36:59 Being the first in the city and we wanted to see,
37:01 okay, what did we learn from it?
37:05 What could we get better at with it?
37:09 Similar with the LPIs that are going in on Bunce Road
37:13 and all of the elements that are going on Bunce Road.
37:15 We wanna see how all of those work,
37:18 learn from them, see what was successful,
37:20 which we suspect a lot of it will be.
37:22 That's why we're doing it.
37:24 And then looking at potentially implementing
37:26 a lot of those complete street elements in other places.
37:29 Yes, and I think my comment on paint or planter boxes
37:33 for number 10 is any of these corners, right?
37:37 So let's take the southwest corner, for example.
37:39 That one is the one where you're kind of
37:41 on a little bit of an island
37:43 and that has to be the longest crosswalk in Lakewood,
37:46 going from the south side of Madison
37:48 to the north side of Madison there.
37:51 And so even just doing that one corner
37:56 of the intersection I think would help.
37:57 So I would encourage us to be creative
38:01 and maybe I know there's lots of grand opportunities
38:03 where you come up, you can get 50 grand to do something.
38:06 And so I would encourage us to look into that.
38:09 Yes, and also this is pedestrian behavior,
38:13 it's about driver behavior too.
38:15 I mean, the fact that someone can get 45 miles
38:18 worth of speed in this intersection is a challenge.
38:20 We should design it so they can't get that fast, right?
38:23 The second thing I will ask,
38:25 and this is more for the traffic engineer,
38:27 do we consider hardening those rules
38:30 at Carabelle and Orchard Grove,
38:31 meaning Carsonite markers, some sort of curb
38:35 so that someone couldn't turn left out of either one?
38:40 Signage is important, it drives behavior.
38:43 Google Maps won't take you that way,
38:45 Waze won't take you that way,
38:47 but it doesn't stop someone who wants to turn left.
38:51 Is that a common practice in traffic engineering
38:53 to like put Carsonite markers up
38:55 or like have a hardening so you can't turn left?
39:00 So I believe I caught most of the question
39:02 and I will apologize to everyone for,
39:04 sometimes the microphone sounds really good
39:07 and then there's other times
39:08 it gets a little bit garbled.
39:09 So if I misstate something
39:14 or I don't answer your question fully,
39:16 please don't hesitate to follow up.
39:18 But the question on some of the things
39:21 that can be done to try to prevent
39:24 and keep vehicles coming off,
39:26 I believe the question was about Carabelle
39:28 and the right turn only movement there.
39:31 Yes, those types of things have been considered.
39:34 One thing that was actually considered too
39:36 was potentially making it a one-way southbound.
39:40 There was not a big desire to do that through,
39:43 and or closing it off completely,
39:46 but then looking at other routes and such.
39:47 Now, all of that had been considered
39:52 through a research of the study.
39:54 The accidents didn't show that that would provide
39:59 that big of improvement.
40:00 And because of the desire for the emergency vehicles
40:04 to continue to use that,
40:07 that was, I'm not gonna use the word discounted,
40:09 but was not considered.
40:11 Are there things that could be done
40:13 to preclude left turners from utilizing that?
40:17 Absolutely, I'm gonna lean on Chris a little bit again here
40:21 too, just because each and every one of those then,
40:24 and again, I love the thoughts and don't get me wrong.
40:29 I think there definitely are some things that can be done.
40:33 There are maintenance sides of the house
40:35 that come into that too.
40:36 So Chris, I might've missed part of the question.
40:39 Sorry to lean on you a little bit.
40:41 Is there anything you wanted to add to that?
40:43 No, you can lean on me, John.
40:46 Again, I mean, from a public works perspective,
40:50 we have to go back to not only maintenance,
40:52 but snow plowing, street sweeping, things of that nature.
40:56 This is a conversation I've had with a lot of folks
40:58 in regards to adding physical barriers to the road.
41:01 And the indirect consequences that in certain situations,
41:05 adding physical barriers to the road
41:07 give to specifically my department.
41:10 Not that we're against them,
41:11 we're all in favor of safety.
41:12 Again, I wanted to reiterate that point.
41:15 But in certain situations, there are indirect consequences.
41:18 So if you're gonna add a physical barrier
41:20 to the middle of the road there,
41:21 that is going to implement ice and snow plow service.
41:26 The trucks are certain width wide.
41:29 I have to look out for their safety as well
41:31 when they're coming down the road.
41:33 So if there's a physical barrier in the road,
41:35 we need to take that into consideration.
41:38 Again, not that that wasn't considered here.
41:42 Again, it goes back to emergency services as well.
41:45 As John said, we did consider making Carabelle one way
41:50 in each direction, and emergency services
41:53 was not in favor of that whatsoever.
41:55 That was a main artery, I was told.
41:57 I am no fireman and I am no policeman, thank God.
42:01 But again, Carabelle was seen as a main artery
42:05 to get back to that neighborhood.
42:07 So any type of quote unquote physical barrier
42:10 that was gonna be put there to make it one way
42:13 was not, I would say, agreed upon with emergency services.
42:19 Yeah, and I think there are ways
42:20 to allow for emergency services access,
42:22 but not general traffic.
42:24 But I do think that what is proposed here is excellent
42:27 and will make this intersection safer.
42:28 The last question I have,
42:29 because I've monopolized a lot of time
42:31 and I apologize, is was there any consideration
42:34 for the width of the road going
42:38 from the southwest corner to the northwest corner
42:41 on Madison is doubled with that crosswalk, I think,
42:45 because it's diagonal for some reason.
42:48 I think because it wants to mimic
42:50 the sidewalk of Hilliard.
42:51 Was there any discussion of just 90-ing it,
42:55 better verb, basically making it straight across Madison?
43:00 I understand that would require a different signal arm
43:02 for the walk signal, but I just didn't know
43:04 if that was ever studied or thought about.
43:07 Yes, yes, it definitely was considered.
43:10 There's no doubt of making it a 90.
43:12 The issue starts to become, well,
43:16 with this intersection, there's always lots of issues
43:18 as we're already discussing here.
43:20 But making that more of a 90 degree intersection
43:23 really pushes that crosswalk quite a ways back
43:28 If you're going, I'll call it southwest on Hilliard,
43:31 you're making that right turn.
43:33 Now that crosswalk is that much further away from you.
43:36 The pedestrian is not nearly as visible to you.
43:40 So anything we can do to shorten that crosswalk
43:45 like what you recommended or suggested there
43:47 definitely was looked at.
43:49 Just wasn't seen as an ideal situation
43:52 to be pushing that crosswalk back that far,
43:55 unfortunately, so we did not recommend that for this.
44:00 Thank you, and I'm sure my colleagues
44:02 may have questions.
44:06 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
44:07 Just first of all, thanks for all the hard work.
44:10 I agree with Councilman Baker.
44:13 I think these are very well thought out improvements.
44:15 I'm really happy to see the,
44:17 hopefully do all these short term things
44:19 in the truly short term.
44:21 And certainly I'm looking forward to
44:24 curb things like that after we see how this works
44:27 and when it makes sense.
44:31 One, I've heard from some folks,
44:34 and it's an interesting perspective.
44:35 It was anything talked about with the speed,
44:38 speed limit differences on these two streets,
44:40 Madison's 25, Hilliard's 35.
44:43 So people talked about,
44:44 I've heard some residents talk about kind of the,
44:46 kind of, it's just kind of an interesting dynamic
44:51 coming together at such an intersection
44:52 that's already problematic.
44:53 And then my second question is,
44:57 with the walk lights, I know they'll be LPIs,
44:59 but, and this goes for city-wide,
45:02 as some people in this room know and hear from me a lot.
45:05 Will the walk lights automatically come on every time
45:07 a pedestrian's allowed to cross,
45:10 or will it be, you have to use
45:12 the indicator button each time?
45:16 I'm of the opinion that the city-wide,
45:18 if you're able to walk,
45:20 the walk signal should go on automatically.
45:23 So just thoughts on those two things.
45:27 So let me touch on first,
45:29 the question number one was the speed differential.
45:32 We did, we clearly know that slower speeds
45:38 There's lots of studies that will show 35 versus 25
45:41 has an impact on safety.
45:45 Did we specifically look at reducing the speed
45:48 on Hilliard for this one?
45:50 We did not, but I don't wanna speak policy
45:54 for the city folks here,
45:56 but that wasn't something that was looked at
45:59 for this particular intersection
46:00 at this particular time,
46:04 but certainly something that could be considered.
46:08 Again, I don't wanna set the policy on what it could be
46:11 other than, you know,
46:12 we'd wanna go through a little bit more of a study
46:15 on the speed limit changes and such.
46:22 and why did I just draw a blank?
46:25 Oh my gosh, I'm sorry.
46:26 What was the second?
46:29 Ensuring that the pedestrian walk signals
46:32 come on automatically
46:33 any time they're allowed to walk
46:35 and not just by pressing the button.
46:40 what will happen at an intersection like this
46:43 and along Madison is in general,
46:45 what will happen is pedestrians crossing
46:49 in the east and west direction
46:52 adjacent to or moving with the Madison Avenue traffic.
46:56 What we'll do in those cases
46:58 is we'll run those pedestrian walks
47:00 to come up every single time
47:02 so they won't have to push the button.
47:06 Here's the challenge.
47:07 And if we bring up the walk indication
47:11 to cross in the north south direction
47:15 when there are no pedestrians,
47:18 what really drives the amount of time needed
47:20 for the north south direction
47:23 is that pedestrian timing.
47:25 So I'll give you an example
47:26 at any one of these intersections.
47:29 If one vehicle pulls up late at night,
47:32 early in the morning, whatever it is,
47:34 and the walk comes up,
47:36 we need to give them their full walk time
47:38 which could be seven, 10 seconds,
47:42 But then they need to be provided
47:45 certainly their full amount of flashing don't walk time
47:49 and the buffer time that's necessary
47:51 for the pedestrians based on those intervals.
47:53 And at this intersection,
47:54 we're talking an extra 28 plus seconds.
47:58 So we're at 38 to 40 seconds of time
48:02 and that's prior to turning yellow.
48:05 Hilliard would be in a green state
48:08 for one vehicle for 40 seconds
48:10 and there's no pedestrians.
48:12 And what we start to get
48:14 is a lot of non-compliance
48:16 with the vehicles also in frustration.
48:19 So we don't like to do that.
48:21 We like to provide that time
48:23 when the pedestrian pushes the button.
48:25 Secondarily is whenever we have the walk indications
48:30 come up each and every time.
48:32 there's great locations where we should be doing that.
48:37 Smaller intersections in particular,
48:39 in downtowns and some of those things.
48:42 However, the problem then also becomes
48:46 because we bring up that walk
48:48 and then flashing don't walk
48:49 and then yellow and all red.
48:51 What that does is it increases the overall amount of time
48:55 to service every movement.
48:56 That includes the opposing
48:59 or the different walks on the different crossings.
49:02 So now we get pedestrians waiting a lot longer
49:07 for a pedestrian phase that's come up
49:11 on a direction that doesn't have a pedestrian.
49:13 So they start to get impatient
49:15 and they're non-compliant also.
49:17 So we've really started,
49:19 it's term we use is the cycle length,
49:21 the amount of time to cycle through all of the intervals.
49:26 And if we bring up that walk each and every time,
49:30 we do need to increase that cycle length.
49:34 Third thing I'll mention about that
49:36 is if we want to have any kind of,
49:40 I'm gonna use the term cooperation or system operation
49:44 between this intersection and the intersections around it,
49:48 what they need to do
49:50 is they need to run with a compatible cycle.
49:53 I know I use the word compatible,
49:54 but generally you could think of as an equal cycle.
49:57 How long does it need to run?
49:59 So if we are going to drive this intersection
50:03 to need a longer cycle,
50:05 the ones around it often get driven to a longer cycle.
50:09 Also, if we wanna provide that system flow,
50:13 which again has positive speed control and everything also.
50:19 So the easy answer is to cross in the North-South,
50:24 they will push the button.
50:26 I hope the APS provides better,
50:31 not just, again, I hate to use the word compliance
50:34 because I don't wanna sound negative here.
50:36 That's not what I mean,
50:37 but that more positive reinforcement and feedback
50:40 that yes, I did get my indication.
50:43 So there is a better there.
50:46 So the recommendation would not be to bring up
50:49 the walk indication each and every time all around.
50:53 Now, I'll add one quick thing.
50:55 As technology advances and we get better things out here,
51:00 there is passive detection technologies that would say,
51:03 hey, pedestrian doesn't push the button,
51:07 I see a pedestrian here during my next opportunity,
51:11 I will bring up that walk.
51:12 They didn't push the button,
51:14 but I am passively seeing that pedestrian out there also.
51:18 That kind of goes along with the item 11
51:21 that we talked about is also doing those types of things.
51:26 And one quick follow-up, and this is an observation,
51:28 maybe item 13 speaks to this,
51:30 but this intersection in particular,
51:33 if you're a pedestrian, you can't see
51:34 the traffic signals.
51:36 You have no idea where in the cycle you are.
51:38 So if you're just walking up to that light
51:40 and it says don't walk, you could wait there
51:41 for like two whole cycles to be able to walk
51:44 when you press the button.
51:45 So maybe if those side-mounted ones
51:47 can at least help you see what the traffic light is doing
51:50 because you literally cannot see from any corner
51:52 what the traffic light is doing,
51:56 Well, that's a great comment
51:57 and it's another value added
51:59 to the auxiliary signal heads.
52:01 Appreciate that comment.
52:02 And as things change,
52:05 because us as pedestrians, we like that pot,
52:08 we wanna know what everyone else has seen also.
52:11 It just makes us more comfortable
52:16 with our condition there.
52:18 So no, I love the comment.
52:22 Councilperson Stubing.
52:24 Thank you, Mr. Albeck,
52:25 and thank you to the Planning Department
52:27 and Public Works Department for working on this
52:30 so we can make this intersection more safe
52:34 for all of our residents here.
52:37 I had a question, Mr. Albeck,
52:38 and I'm hoping that you'll start the conversation
52:41 and then possibly planning can jump in afterwards
52:45 and possibly Public Works as well.
52:48 But I wanted to talk about, Mr. Albeck,
52:51 the comment you mentioned briefly about education
52:55 and how we start to help our citizens realize
52:59 that this intersection has changed.
53:03 I've seen in some instances where they say,
53:07 signal change, coming soon or what have you.
53:10 Have you seen anything else in other communities
53:14 that they're doing?
53:16 Can you talk about that?
53:18 Absolutely, absolutely.
53:19 So one of the things signing definitely
53:22 is one of those things.
53:24 You could see signs that changes are coming.
53:27 Forgive me on what the actual verbiage is.
53:30 We'd wanna look into that.
53:31 So there definitely is signage that can be presented.
53:36 One of the signs that likely will be put up,
53:40 even with these short-term implementations will be,
53:43 now this is more, I'll use the word reactive,
53:46 when the changes are made,
53:48 and I'll have to look up what the language is again,
53:51 but it's phase changes have been made.
53:55 I'm paraphrasing the language,
53:56 but telling these drivers and these pedestrians,
54:00 changes have been made.
54:02 So there is some education that can be done with signing.
54:05 Certainly I know, and I'll use ODOT as an example,
54:09 when there's changes that are made,
54:11 they try to, pardon me, also have their videos
54:16 and their informational brochures
54:19 to kind of present to the citizens.
54:24 Social media groups and such can get the word out
54:27 about some of the changes that are coming.
54:29 So there's all kinds of ways to provide that information.
54:34 Signing has some success, but some of this is anecdotal.
54:40 I don't necessarily have a study to show this,
54:43 but in my past, when you ask someone,
54:47 what did that sign just say?
54:48 Often like, what sign?
54:50 I'm not saying that they don't notice
54:52 and it doesn't help, but there's limited benefit.
54:56 So there's all kinds of things
54:57 that can be pushed and promoted.
55:00 I'd be curious, maybe Dave and Chris
55:02 have some other ways that you've done,
55:04 well, the committee that Dave,
55:06 you've got going on right now is an education thing too.
55:09 Did you wanna add anything?
55:13 I would say that that is kind of,
55:17 as we start to look to the timeframe
55:19 of rolling these things out,
55:20 that is kind of the next step,
55:21 is an important thing.
55:22 And it's even as simple as trying to keep it
55:27 short, concise and simple, like one topic.
55:30 It could be like a brochure or a one page,
55:33 like one screen thing on LPI,
55:35 on reminders about no turn on red,
55:39 like reminders about like, please don't walk
55:42 when it's not the white guy walking across the street.
55:47 Those things, it's just reinforcing as I,
55:51 as everyone here lives and drives
55:54 and walks around the community,
55:55 it's like those little things
55:56 as we get into kind of the 100 days of summer
56:00 of reinforcing just basic behaviors.
56:05 The number of times that I'm at the Detroit
56:07 and Andrews heading south,
56:10 or trying to make a turn,
56:11 that people just walk against like the red,
56:13 because exactly what John is talking about,
56:15 because it's a three-phase intersection.
56:19 And so you get like the Elmwood traffic,
56:21 then you get the Andrews traffic,
56:22 and people don't get it,
56:23 and they just get tired of walking,
56:25 and that's his denying compliance he's talking about,
56:27 and so they just go.
56:29 And then you end up with a whole family
56:31 or three people in front of a whole lot of traffic
56:33 that's trying to get to the green,
56:35 and it's a very limited green.
56:37 And so that is a challenge that we need to answer up
56:41 and work in, I think, with the mayor's office
56:43 and the communications officer and things
56:45 just to come up with those short, concise topics.
56:50 I think, just as I'm thinking through it,
56:52 they're not necessarily specific to this intersection
56:56 a lot of them, but they just seem to reinforce
56:58 those basic behaviors.
57:00 They can be done in the guise of these things coming out,
57:03 too, but they apply more broadly.
57:05 So it's a great point taken,
57:06 because we are, at least in my view,
57:09 we are not great at that right now,
57:11 and we need to get better.
57:13 Thank you, I agree.
57:14 And I think for those, it's easy to say,
57:17 well, we have the videos online,
57:19 and you walk around in the neighborhood,
57:21 they don't even know that we have a website.
57:23 You know what I mean?
57:24 So maybe even door hangers to let people know,
57:27 and this is another area where we could start working
57:30 with block captains to keep educating their neighbors
57:34 and putting out door hangers and talking to people,
57:37 and we've got a beautiful park there,
57:38 and maybe we meet there on a sunny day
57:40 and talk about what the changes are.
57:44 But thank you, I appreciate that.
57:48 We're a little bit over, but this is important,
57:51 so assuming Councilman Evans will give us
57:53 a couple more minutes.
57:55 Do you have Councilman Bullock?
57:57 Yeah, Councilman Bixenstein.
58:01 Thank you very much, Mr. Albeck, for the presentation.
58:04 I really appreciate it, especially you laying out
58:06 kind of the safety versus efficiency trade-offs,
58:08 and thank you to our representatives from Public Works
58:10 and Planning for helping to make this intersection safer.
58:13 I have one comment and two quick questions.
58:17 I do appreciate that this study analysis took place
58:21 during last April because that gave the opportunity
58:24 to see both peak school hours and then also spring break
58:28 where you would have had more of a summer environment,
58:30 whereas maybe there were less kids going,
58:33 of course, kids not going to school,
58:34 but perhaps the Wager Park was more crowded,
58:37 so I do appreciate that.
58:39 However, I think, as the study states,
58:42 there are four schools within one mile
58:45 of this intersection, including, of course,
58:47 a Harding Middle School being in very close proximity,
58:50 so I think as we go through these and analyze,
58:55 we need to do it through the lens
58:57 that this looming redistricting is gonna result
59:00 in more vehicular traffic during our rush hours
59:04 as well as more kids having longer walking commutes
59:08 to school, so I just ask that we keep that in mind
59:12 as we are going through this.
59:14 My two quick questions, with regard to the Orchard Grove
59:18 right in, right out, certainly that makes sense
59:21 from a safety standpoint, but I'm curious as to
59:23 what we anticipate as far as indirect consequences from that.
59:26 For instance, will people end up pulling illegal U-turns
59:29 if they wanna go east on Madison,
59:31 or will they know to go to Woodward and make a left
59:35 and use a kind of a triangle to get back
59:38 in the right direction, Hilliard, back to Madison?
59:41 And my second question is, from looking at the data,
59:44 of course, with our east-west commercial corridors,
59:47 sun glare is a major factor, or at least it is
59:49 when we're not in winter and haven't seen the sun
59:51 for a few months, and I guess when I look
59:57 at the crash analysis and the timing,
59:59 it doesn't seem to suggest that sun glare
1:00:02 has been a major factor in most of the crash data
1:00:07 we have, can you confirm that that is indeed the case?
1:00:12 I will start with the second one first.
1:00:14 Yes, we didn't see any, and I totally agree with you
1:00:18 on these east-west roads that sun glare can be an issue
1:00:20 at certain times of the day, certain times of the year,
1:00:23 depending on some situations,
1:00:26 but we did not see from the crash data
1:00:29 that sun glare was any kind of,
1:00:31 because we'll look at time of day, what's the year,
1:00:34 kind of dig into the data and the reports,
1:00:36 and nothing, none of the evidence was showing
1:00:38 that sun glare was an issue creating some of the crashes,
1:00:45 The first question about the conversion of Orchard Grove,
1:00:50 there certainly are always concerns about,
1:00:53 again, non-compliance of vehicles,
1:00:56 and or, quite frankly, the inconvenience
1:00:59 that it's going to create for some of the vehicles
1:01:03 that do then make the turn and then have to kind of
1:01:05 rework themselves through the system a little bit different
1:01:14 I don't know if this is the good news or the bad news,
1:01:17 but that volume, the amount of traffic
1:01:20 that comes out of there is relatively low,
1:01:23 so we hope it doesn't impact people significantly.
1:01:28 We suggest, I suggest that as you hear of non-compliance,
1:01:35 other things could be looked at and addressed
1:01:38 to tighten that up, for instance,
1:01:40 again, I don't want to hold up short-term recommendations
1:01:45 for things that potentially may not be an issue.
1:01:50 And again, I'm not against even doing them,
1:01:52 but I really want to see, I would really like to see
1:01:56 these things that we can do like within a month
1:01:59 get implemented, but if there is some issues
1:02:03 with vehicles continually trying to make that left turn
1:02:06 out of there, another study could be looked at
1:02:09 to do some more counts, gather that data,
1:02:13 get that information, and then more physical types
1:02:16 of barriers and such could be considered
1:02:22 But as it is right now, it's a quite low volume,
1:02:25 so we'd like to see how it operates
1:02:28 with this relatively low cost type of sign-in
1:02:34 So to add on with what John was saying to you,
1:02:37 Councilman Bixenstein, is to convert Orchard Grove
1:02:40 to right in, right out, that one is one
1:02:43 that we're gonna, similar to what he's saying,
1:02:46 we're gonna implement these changes,
1:02:48 we wanna see how these changes do,
1:02:51 see how Orchard Grove continues to operate
1:02:53 after these changes, if it becomes a problem,
1:02:56 look to make it right in, right out,
1:02:58 but see how these changes affect it off the start.
1:03:01 I would say that would be probably last on our list
1:03:05 because it has a very large impact
1:03:08 on that entire neighborhood,
1:03:10 so we wanna make sure it is an issue.
1:03:13 So similar to what John said,
1:03:14 kinda see how this all plays out,
1:03:16 see if traffic is backing up or longer legs,
1:03:21 making that turn onto Hilliard off Madison,
1:03:25 see if it is an issue with folks coming out of there
1:03:27 trying to make the left, and things of that nature.
1:03:32 Thank you both, and I agree it's not worth
1:03:33 holding up some of these short-term changes
1:03:40 Councilman Bullock, then Councilperson Haslund.
1:03:43 So this is, the intersection we're talking about
1:03:47 is my neighborhood, I go through this intersection
1:03:49 every day, and I come out through Orchard Grove,
1:03:52 and so Councilman Bixenstein did a great job
1:03:55 of anticipating two things that were already,
1:03:57 in fact, I've already kinda emailed you guys
1:03:59 because I know we're short on time here.
1:04:02 My punchline is I support the short-term recommendations,
1:04:05 including that change, however, I'm gonna hear about it
1:04:07 from my neighbors and my family,
1:04:10 and I think the first step is going to be
1:04:16 and the alternative path is to go all the way
1:04:20 to Woodward by Harding School,
1:04:26 Going north to Detroit, where Detroit is quite slow
1:04:31 because downtown is already quite activated,
1:04:33 there is a construction project
1:04:35 for the Westline apartment building,
1:04:39 we're very happy that's coming with 120-some apartments
1:04:42 at both Rosewood and Orchard Grove,
1:04:46 and so John, Mr. Albrecht on the phone here,
1:04:52 that Orchard Grove is the exit for two streets, not one.
1:04:58 Now, I take the point of the safety improvement
1:05:03 of the left turns through Hilliard and Madison,
1:05:08 and I think that's the priority,
1:05:09 and so the stacking issue that you've anticipated,
1:05:12 I think, is exactly correct, so we'll have to do it,
1:05:15 but I think, Mr. Gordon, I'm gonna tell you right now,
1:05:18 it's unrealistic to think that people
1:05:20 are just gonna happily do this.
1:05:22 This is a little bit like saying
1:05:25 there doesn't need to be a crossing light
1:05:31 It took us years to get the hawk signal installed,
1:05:35 and it took our utility company months more
1:05:40 I'm glad it finally is operable.
1:05:41 So I guess the point is not to fail
1:05:46 to make safety implementations,
1:05:47 but let's also think through the ripple effects,
1:05:53 which I think is the point of your study.
1:05:56 Now, I wanna back up a quick step.
1:05:58 First, I've emailed some questions
1:05:59 because we don't have time to go through it all,
1:06:03 but one of my questions is to be on SunGlare.
1:06:06 SunGlare is an issue, especially during the
1:06:10 go-to-school-in-the-morning hour,
1:06:12 so, Mr. Albrecht, I'd encourage you
1:06:15 Also, there was a car that hit a bike trailer
1:06:19 with two children in the bike trailer,
1:06:21 and the driver sighted SunGlare as a factor.
1:06:24 And on your slide for, on page 22,
1:06:29 citing the frequency of crashes by hour,
1:06:31 I don't see the 8 or 9 p.m.,
1:06:34 excuse me, the 8 or 9 a.m. hour
1:06:36 when that crash would have occurred
1:06:37 because it's on the way to school.
1:06:39 So I wonder if you're missing that
1:06:41 very visible traffic incident,
1:06:44 which was alarming to us all,
1:06:46 and a sad thing, I'm sure nobody involved
1:06:49 in that accident wanted that to happen.
1:06:51 But I do think SunGlare is an issue,
1:06:53 seasonally, and it's gonna be during the school year
1:06:57 when the sun is low in the sky.
1:07:00 So one of my questions was,
1:07:02 did we analyze the idea of allowing left turns
1:07:06 or requiring left turns on Westwood,
1:07:08 which is on the slide to the far right,
1:07:11 in our view, it's not analyzed in this analysis,
1:07:14 but you could have eastbound traffic
1:07:16 that wants to turn from Madison eastbound
1:07:20 to Hilliard instead proceed straight
1:07:21 through the intersection, turn left on Westwood,
1:07:24 queue at the light, that's a signalized
1:07:27 double intersection, and then turn right on Hilliard.
1:07:30 I don't honestly know if that's a great idea
1:07:32 or a terrible idea, but that is an option,
1:07:34 and that's a workaround that we have
1:07:38 people make cut-throughs and find alternative routes.
1:07:41 But that would avoid the left turn,
1:07:43 maybe you'd do that during the SunGlare season,
1:07:46 I don't know, but the tone and tone
1:07:50 of what I really wanna say is,
1:07:51 I'm glad you're doing this,
1:07:54 is the recommendation of the administration
1:07:56 that city council prove this without changes.
1:08:00 I think I can support the short term without changes,
1:08:03 but on the long term, I'd like to see us
1:08:08 get to them more quickly rather than later,
1:08:13 because I think rather than avoid all mistakes,
1:08:15 I think we should have some risk tolerance
1:08:17 and have the approach of gaining the safety benefits
1:08:21 as soon as possible, rather than try to wait
1:08:26 in three years from now, we haven't really gotten to much.
1:08:29 The one that's a sweet spot would be the real time
1:08:34 maybe that gives you the best of both worlds
1:08:36 where you can do some short term things,
1:08:38 but put in the lidar and the thermal imaging cameras
1:08:43 and the predictive modeling,
1:08:44 and then that way, you could get the volumes
1:08:48 for the vehicles through smart switches,
1:08:54 not being as impacted, and you get
1:08:56 this pedestrian safety improvements actualized.
1:09:01 Thank you, and councilperson Hamilton-Senator,
1:09:03 I will say that I think receiving file recommend
1:09:06 whatever we can do as our formal action
1:09:08 out of this committee, and I will say
1:09:09 to your longer term point, councilman Bullock,
1:09:12 I think this is ripe for a budget.
1:09:14 So I think we talk about it.
1:09:17 We already have the case has and funds allocated.
1:09:21 Yes, so yeah, I think that's a good point.
1:09:24 Oh, councilperson Hamilton-Senator?
1:09:26 Okay, well then I think the question then becomes,
1:09:32 I think our actions are receiving file,
1:09:38 but to the point of, I think it's incumbent
1:09:41 on all of us to work with the administration
1:09:46 to see that these and help them
1:09:47 and make whatever resources are necessary
1:09:51 to implement the short term recommendations.
1:09:52 It doesn't sound like many resources,
1:09:54 but it sounds like, is the administration committed
1:09:56 to the short term recommendations?
1:10:03 to the short term recommendations.
1:10:06 Again, we will, as soon as this gets through here,
1:10:10 we will begin working as quickly as possible on it.
1:10:12 I would be lying if I didn't say
1:10:15 we've already started to look into many of these,
1:10:17 and necessary equipment that needs to be ordered,
1:10:20 a lot of it has already been ordered.
1:10:23 So we are trying to stay ahead of it.
1:10:25 But again, you got some lead times
1:10:27 on some things in here in supply chain
1:10:30 So unfortunately, in certain situations,
1:10:32 with some of the items that are listed here,
1:10:34 we're at the mercy of that.
1:10:38 to get all of the necessary equipment in,
1:10:41 we will look to make the changes as soon as possible.
1:10:45 And then secondly, on the long term recommendations,
1:10:49 Councilman Bullock's point,
1:10:49 we appropriated some money for case recommendations.
1:10:52 And then also I'd be interested in figuring out
1:10:57 during the budget, working with the administration
1:10:58 on how to maybe fund some of these things.
1:11:01 This is an intersection that is not ward specific.
1:11:03 Everyone in Lakewood interacts
1:11:04 with this intersection largely.
1:11:06 And so certainly willing to do what we can to help fund it.
1:11:11 I did wanna make sure we made time.
1:11:12 And I will say the clerk's office did a great job
1:11:14 of explaining planning commission's input to us via email.
1:11:19 And I was not able to attend the case meeting,
1:11:21 although I am your faithful case ex officio member.
1:11:26 in Judge Lauren Moore's courtroom,
1:11:28 and I was the jury foreman.
1:11:30 So I was unable to attend the case meeting.
1:11:33 Assistant Director Ross, can you give us a high level
1:11:36 of what their analysis was?
1:11:40 The three notes that I walked away
1:11:41 from the case meeting last week
1:11:44 was that they concurred to move forward
1:11:47 with the short term recommendations.
1:11:50 If and when we get to the right turn only
1:11:54 of the restriction on Orchard Grove,
1:11:56 which I think Director Gordon described it.
1:11:59 The approach and the recommended approach
1:12:01 and our approach to the short term recommendations
1:12:03 is largely they're intended to be kind of sequential.
1:12:07 They build on each other from one through nine.
1:12:11 Some of them obviously have already been done,
1:12:13 but there are things that have to happen
1:12:16 before other things have to happen.
1:12:18 The convert Orchard Grove to right in,
1:12:20 right out is the last thing.
1:12:23 And I think that Director Gordon's point is that
1:12:26 you wanna get the majority of all the signal changes
1:12:30 and everything in there, see how the actual stacking
1:12:34 and the queuing for that left turn actually turns out
1:12:37 before you make that final.
1:12:38 And I think it's well taken that that is probably
1:12:44 one of the most impactful for local residents
1:12:46 of any time you put a restriction down there.
1:12:49 And so I think that's what Director Gordon's point
1:12:52 earlier was that we made weight on that.
1:12:56 And so I think Case's point, given that discussion
1:13:01 last week was that if and when you're going to do it
1:13:04 to make sure that there is some outreach
1:13:08 and positive notification of residents,
1:13:10 kind of how we do the other public works projects
1:13:13 on the street or something with a letter
1:13:14 or something that actually goes out to every house
1:13:17 so they know this change is being contemplated
1:13:20 and when it's gonna go into effect.
1:13:24 And then, and I will say the long-term recommendations
1:13:28 with Case, it is a topic and a discussion
1:13:34 How that board fits into the existing processes
1:13:37 and planning and programming is very unclear.
1:13:42 And so they view them the long-term recommendations.
1:13:46 They're supportive of them.
1:13:48 They recognize the long-term timeframe.
1:13:51 But generally, any time that those recommendations
1:13:54 would actually be programmed and budgeted for,
1:13:57 they would likely go back to Case for review
1:14:00 and input at that point in time
1:14:02 in terms of the specifics of what's being proposed.
1:14:05 And so we had the same discussions
1:14:08 in terms of what's being shown
1:14:12 and everybody largely gravitates
1:14:14 towards the physical interaction
1:14:15 and the interventions of the bump-outs.
1:14:17 Exact same discussions we had at Planning Commission
1:14:21 in terms of how you design and de-conflict transit
1:14:26 with bike lanes and the actual, and everything else.
1:14:30 So the discussion kind of devolved into that.
1:14:33 The same kind of, you kind of get wrapped around the axle
1:14:36 all of these things and sometimes you need to rely
1:14:39 on professionals to actually do the design
1:14:42 of those things in interaction with RTA
1:14:44 and with bike lane best practices and so.
1:14:47 So I would bring that back to Case
1:14:49 when we actually have a timeframe,
1:14:53 the programming, the budgeting and confirmation
1:14:56 that we're gonna move forward with those,
1:14:58 whether temporary or permanent.
1:15:00 And so those things need to be washed out
1:15:02 a little bit more in terms of the inner workings
1:15:05 of Public Works and the Director of Public Safety, so.
1:15:10 Sounds like Planning summer intern
1:15:13 may be having a lawn chair at this intersection
1:15:15 after we put some of these short-term recommendations
1:15:20 Thank you, we've gone a little over, appreciate.
1:15:23 Yeah, Councilperson Hanlon-Steiner.
1:15:27 Assistant Director Baas, is there any plan
1:15:30 to communicate an essentially status update
1:15:34 to the community regarding these short-term recommendations
1:15:37 and what are the next steps moving forward
1:15:39 since this is something that I think
1:15:41 a lot of the community has been very worried about
1:15:45 I think an update would be,
1:15:47 might be good to just disseminate some information out.
1:15:51 Yeah, I think that's fully within the intention
1:15:52 of the mayor and once he makes the final decision
1:15:57 on kind of the when and the what, I think.
1:16:00 I think we're all coalescing
1:16:02 around the short-term recommendations
1:16:03 that we talked about, but again,
1:16:04 I don't have to lean on Public Works
1:16:06 in terms of the actual when that's gonna happen.
1:16:10 So again, as I said before,
1:16:13 you know, we're gonna look to get this done
1:16:17 I, again, I'm waiting on equipment to get here.
1:16:22 You know, we have to coordinate the exact stop project
1:16:29 There's a lot of floating factors
1:16:32 that are going in right now.
1:16:34 So I know I had said before,
1:16:36 before the end of the year,
1:16:37 and John's saying, yeah, we can get it done,
1:16:39 you know, within a month as soon as we get everything,
1:16:43 but I have to have everything physically here.
1:16:45 I have to have, I have to obligate employees
1:16:48 to doing this work, which we will.
1:16:50 It is at the top of our list.
1:16:53 But again, it goes back to making sure
1:16:55 that I have everything to get the work completed.
1:16:58 And on top of that, you know,
1:16:59 Dave and I have a laundry list
1:17:01 of other intersections we're looking at as well.
1:17:03 So there's a lot going on right now
1:17:06 if I were to be straight up.
1:17:08 And this is at the top of our list.
1:17:10 So I think it needs to be made clear in here
1:17:13 that, you know, we are focusing in on this right now,
1:17:16 especially as it gets through council.
1:17:18 So some of the other requests that are coming in
1:17:21 are gonna need to be put on hold
1:17:22 until we can get this completed.
1:17:29 Don't fully understand that.
1:17:30 Maybe we could talk about it offline.
1:17:32 But to the point of this particular action,
1:17:36 I appreciate everything the administration's done here.
1:17:40 And to the point Councilperson Hamilton-Stanford made,
1:17:44 I think the public's very interested in this.
1:17:46 So I would encourage the administration
1:17:47 to have some outreach about this study.
1:17:51 And I think we should applaud the administration,
1:17:56 And I certainly, so with that,
1:17:58 I will make a motion to receive and file this report.
1:18:08 I think the point that some of my colleagues
1:18:10 to the public works director in the planning department
1:18:12 is communication, public education's your friend.
1:18:15 And so whatever physical or timing or smart circuitry
1:18:22 we install, and eventually I hope curb bump outs also,
1:18:27 it all works better and more effectively
1:18:30 the more communications that we have.
1:18:32 And we've got the potential
1:18:33 for quite a lot of good content.
1:18:36 In fact, I wanted to thank the police department
1:18:40 They put out a anti-glare advisory,
1:18:43 including just simple things like clean your windscreen,
1:18:47 And I did it, you know, and it helped.
1:18:49 So we've got a lot of content and a lot of people.
1:18:53 I think that City Hall's footing should be
1:18:57 when in doubt, let's communicate and over-communicate.
1:19:00 And that probably can help.
1:19:02 Process question, Mr. Chair.
1:19:04 Why is our action receiving file?
1:19:07 I think the formal process here
1:19:10 is the planning commission approves
1:19:11 and the case board also approves or denies.
1:19:15 And so what the status of that is what?
1:19:18 Yeah, so this is, I welcome,
1:19:22 earlier I welcomed input on that point.
1:19:24 And the way I view it is I actually think,
1:19:29 you know, it's not something that's,
1:19:30 this is a study of importance in the community.
1:19:34 So it was reflected in a correspondence to council,
1:19:39 something that would typically go to planning commission
1:19:41 and planning commission would either like recommend
1:19:43 or not recommend or have comments to it, similar to case.
1:19:48 our action is to receive and file.
1:19:53 You know, I suppose we could receive and file
1:19:56 with approval or receive for file,
1:19:58 but I'm not sure Robert's Rules of Order
1:20:00 has those actions involved in them.
1:20:02 But I would welcome any thoughts of yours
1:20:05 as to how else we would handle it
1:20:07 other than receive and file.
1:20:09 so the planning commission has taken what action
1:20:12 regarding this proposed plan?
1:20:18 since Director Voss, I believe they,
1:20:24 or recommended with some comments?
1:20:26 I believe that the action from planning commission
1:20:28 was to receive and file a report with the recommendation
1:20:31 to implement the short-term recommendations
1:20:34 and look at implementing long-term recommendations
1:20:38 on a shorter timeframe than normal long-term,
1:20:43 And then you just recapped what Case did.
1:20:46 It sounds, as a matter of fact,
1:20:47 it sounds like there's significant consensus
1:20:51 which is pretty remarkable.
1:20:52 You know, we all wanna improve
1:20:54 and we wanna try to get to it
1:20:56 as quickly as is prudent and practical.
1:21:02 Okay, that answers my question.
1:21:07 I don't know if there is a receive and file
1:21:12 if there's just any in this committee,
1:21:13 but Helman Dixonstein looks creative
1:21:20 No, I, yeah, I think that we can keep it in committee
1:21:27 and bring it up later if we want
1:21:28 and not receive and file it.
1:21:31 But I think that's pedantic.
1:21:33 I think that we should receive and file.
1:21:36 But I'm one person in this committee, so.
1:21:39 I think receiving and filing is fine.
1:21:40 Okay, all right, so the motion is made on the table.
1:21:44 Any discussion, further discussion?
1:21:46 All those in favor say aye.
1:21:49 No further business coming for committee of the whole.