Written by the reviewer from the ASR + docket; [verbatim-ASR] = quoted machine transcript; [paraphrase] = reviewer's wording, not a quote.
0:02 We'll call a committee to hold an order.
0:03 Apologies, everyone.
0:04 My laptop started doing updates right before I left, so I had to negotiate with IT to get
0:10 So, which is a reminder, they asked me to pass along, so councilmembers, after we
0:15 go home tonight, please plug into your laptops and leave them on, so IT can do those
0:24 So, first move to approve the minutes of the January 26 Committee of the Whole without the
0:34 necessity of a reading.
0:36 The motion's been made and seconded.
0:43 And that motion passes.
0:45 So, our main item tonight is to do a conversation about the City Hall space considerations,
0:52 and I will turn it over to Chief Story, I guess, to get us started.
0:57 Thank you, Madam President.
0:59 I'm John Story, Mayor George's Chief of Staff.
1:03 I don't have the name tag, but I want to, first of all, thank the president leadership
1:11 for, again, continuing this dialogue, this conversation.
1:14 I know as you plan ahead, month ahead on, or even more so, many times on scheduling
1:21 It's hard to herd sheep or whatever, and tonight we unfortunately drew Silie, one of the main
1:30 guys who we've been working with quite closely, he came down with the flu.
1:33 So we're dealing with that, but luckily the team, we have some out of town guests
1:37 who've driven into town.
1:38 We have the entire Liberty development team here, and we'll be excited to introduce
1:44 and I'll have Tom do the presentation of his team to you guys so you know who's
1:50 I just want to kick off with this, and then next week, our goal, our aim, and what we're
1:56 endeavoring to do, David Boss is in the back, our team in the mayor's office as
2:01 well as others in the planning and finance, we're all aggregating and doing everything
2:05 we can to compile a list of questions and comments that have been said and to try
2:10 to get answers and to synthesize the data in a way that is moving the ball down
2:18 Obviously this week we'll be working a lot on this, and if anything comes up or you
2:23 want to speak to us or the development team, have at it.
2:27 This is the time to do it.
2:29 So with that said, if you would like me to introduce Tom, I'll do so.
2:32 That would be great.
2:34 Come on up Tom, thank you.
2:42 Green means go, I learned that when I was a little kid.
2:46 Thank you Madam President, Council, feels like yesterday we were all together,
2:51 And it almost was yesterday.
2:54 Thank you for meeting with us again today.
2:57 And I think the last time we were together I was a little bit unsure of where I was
3:03 supposed to go with it, but today I feel like I got a much better understanding
3:07 of our role here is to let you know where we're coming from, give you any
3:12 information that we have, and make sure you understand our team.
3:15 So we made, just to give the history that we all know, we bought the
3:22 buildings and we had a couple of projects we were working on.
3:26 One of them was significant with First Federal of Lakewood to keep them here.
3:30 That took us two years and frankly COVID killed that.
3:33 Working on other projects and during that time you talked with the city and
3:38 it was brought up to us that would we consider selling these or doing
3:43 something with City Hall because they were working on the issue that they're
3:48 Which, you know, we kind of have the institutional mind, that's a lot of
3:52 So this is very comfortable for us in having these conversations.
3:55 So I feel like over time we'll be able to connect on whatever, because
4:00 that's how I look at it, right?
4:02 You're sort of that institutional mind trying to take care of a very large
4:07 But it made sense to us.
4:09 So that doesn't mean it makes sense to everybody.
4:12 We have had an opportunity to be able to speak to you clearly about this project
4:19 because we've had a hell of a lot more time, effort, and investment in this
4:23 project than you have or anybody else, frankly, starting with the renovation of
4:28 the smaller building, which is 10,000 square feet, which you can go touch,
4:32 walk through, talk to tenants, take a look at at least the finished level
4:37 We've also owned these buildings a long time and have had the
4:40 opportunity to discover a lot of what would normally be a surprise in a
4:46 So we've been able to dig through walls and take open ceilings and do things
4:50 that you don't do if you're just buying something for renovation.
4:53 So that's another thing that when I spoke to you about being excited about
4:58 this, we don't always get that opportunity to know these things.
5:03 The team that I'm going to introduce you to, this is not the first time
5:07 we've worked together.
5:09 The first time that we worked together was renovating the Bulkley Building in
5:15 downtown Cleveland with Playhouse Square.
5:17 It started with a relationship of mine, and you start talking about things,
5:20 and ultimately, I said to Drew, we need to find the best architect,
5:26 meaning the architect that has done more conversions or historic tax credit
5:32 office building type projects around.
5:35 And we found a Berardi in Columbus.
5:39 They actually have a Cleveland, their Cleveland roots are from here.
5:42 George Berardi, who founded the firm, is from Cleveland.
5:46 We actually had a lot of people in common that we knew.
5:48 And anyway, we ultimately hired them to be the architect.
5:52 And I'm giving you some information about this so you know this isn't a
5:55 haphazard team that we've put together.
5:58 So with Playhouse Square, the board there is the who's who of real estate
6:03 and investment people in Cleveland.
6:05 And we're working with Art Falco, who's now retired,
6:08 the CEO for decades.
6:10 And we proposed doing what we do quite often, which is to build a team.
6:16 We should interview them.
6:17 They didn't know who we knew, and they didn't know who we knew.
6:21 So we went out to four companies that had,
6:24 this is the construction of things now,
6:27 a history of successful projects doing historic tax credit buildings
6:31 in downtown Cleveland.
6:33 Had not worked with J.G.J., John G. Johnson before,
6:37 although I knew Mike Weber because he lives in Lakewood.
6:40 His wife and my wife are friends, but we'd never worked together.
6:42 They won that contest through meetings and a lot of conversation about
6:49 where this could go, getting their ideas.
6:51 So ultimately, though, we built a team and we renovated that building.
6:55 There were two other projects going on that were not in our control.
7:00 One of them was Dixon Eaton on the top floor, which is office.
7:04 And that was being done by Playhouse Square initially.
7:07 And then I think it was Whiting Turner was going to finish it.
7:10 And then Playhouse Square was redoing the elevators,
7:12 big project and the facade of the building.
7:15 When that project got started, it was very confusing, right?
7:22 You got contractors trying to take priority over things
7:26 and how are we going to get the buck hoist and all these things.
7:28 I got a phone call from Mike Weber who said,
7:31 Tom, this is going to go very, very badly
7:33 if you don't put somebody in charge.
7:36 And I'll never forget that conversation.
7:38 He said, I'm going to do it.
7:40 I'm not charging you for it,
7:41 but we need to make sure this is a successful project.
7:45 He had great respect from Whiting Turner, Playhouse Square,
7:50 and everybody else that worked on the project.
7:52 And there was total cooperation with everybody.
7:56 And it got done on time, on budget.
7:58 All the projects, not just our project.
8:00 Ours was the largest of the whole thing, which made sense.
8:02 That's why we would take it over.
8:04 So building number two that we worked on
8:06 was the Lakewood Board of Education building.
8:09 And terrific partners from the beginning.
8:13 Somebody has an idea.
8:15 Somebody else throws it.
8:16 I mean, this isn't an architect in charge of all the architecture
8:19 and the contractors in charge of all the contracting.
8:22 They have different perspectives from what they do.
8:24 And sitting at the table together,
8:26 they get along better than a family at Christmas time.
8:33 So I want to introduce you to those folks.
8:34 But I needed to give you the background.
8:36 This isn't a team that hasn't worked before.
8:37 It was vetted pretty well.
8:39 And when we were given the opportunity to come to the city
8:43 with a proposal that, and there could have been 10 others,
8:47 whatever, but from our perspective,
8:49 what could we do to satisfy the issue the city had,
8:53 which was with our buildings?
8:55 I think I told you I would have loved it.
8:58 They just don't seem to have any interest in that,
9:00 but it's always on the table for what it's worth.
9:02 But I like the way it fit.
9:03 Everything made sense to me.
9:06 And hopefully it will to you, too.
9:09 It was from a lot of experience in the buildings,
9:11 knowing what we have,
9:13 knowing what we have to do to them to accommodate
9:16 the most stringent buyer, tenant,
9:19 whatever we had to do.
9:21 So I guess the point I'm bringing up about owning it
9:25 is because that's generally how we do things.
9:29 We try to build a portfolio and keep it,
9:33 That's part of what we're doing.
9:34 We don't do anything short-term.
9:36 We don't just turn things and sell them.
9:39 We're not merchant builders.
9:40 I brought up Cozumel,
9:42 because we built that for IHOP 25 years ago.
9:49 To own something like that in Lakewood is incredibly rare.
9:55 If Cozumel wanted to buy it, I wouldn't sell it.
9:57 So it's giving you some perspective on why,
10:00 where we're coming from and what we're trying to do.
10:03 I'm pretty good at some of this stuff,
10:05 but the kind of letting you know the feelings
10:08 and where I'm coming from.
10:09 But we are really good at getting a project done on time.
10:12 We've done it for university hospitals, very tough.
10:15 Cleveland State, and they're our tenant and partner.
10:17 We're still with them.
10:19 Kohl's department stores, Walmart, Target, you name it.
10:23 And these people are about as tough as you can get
10:25 in terms of scrutinizing our product.
10:28 I'm only telling you that because this is my opportunity
10:31 to let you know we're not just doing a project here,
10:36 We've been doing this for 30 years.
10:38 And I don't think we've ever done a project once
10:40 for someone if they didn't have a second project.
10:42 They didn't ask us to come back.
10:44 We've paid all our bills.
10:45 You won't find a contractor out there saying
10:47 we didn't come through.
10:49 And I'm proud of that.
10:51 I've had the same partners for 30 years.
10:54 So hopefully you'll get a chance to hear
10:56 what's being proposed here,
10:58 get a chance to talk to our team,
11:00 and get comfortable with that.
11:02 Don't assume that that's going to end the questions.
11:04 I expect you'll have a lot.
11:06 Everybody comes from a different perspective.
11:09 But know that what you're going to see,
11:11 we had an opportunity,
11:13 and I think Variety did most of the work,
11:15 to interview these departments and find out,
11:19 Who do you talk to?
11:20 It's a program, which I know some of you
11:22 are pretty familiar with, maybe not all of you,
11:24 but they call it a program.
11:26 Just tell me what you need.
11:28 How many square feet?
11:32 And who do you deal with the most?
11:33 So what you see is not a first pass,
11:35 but quite a bit of work has gone into this floor plan.
11:38 Doesn't mean it has to be the final floor plan.
11:40 We don't have fixtures picked out.
11:42 We used the same finishes that we would have done
11:45 in the other building.
11:46 So if you want to see what we were using in here,
11:48 you could look at that.
11:49 That doesn't mean it has to be that.
11:51 That's where we work together, too.
11:53 So I don't expect this to be the end.
11:55 But I'm happy to answer any questions now
11:57 or I can come back later.
11:58 But I think the best next group to talk to you is Berardi.
12:03 Missy and Joe Berardi are here from Columbus.
12:08 They have an office in Cleveland,
12:10 so they're not always driving back and forth.
12:12 And then after that, I would ask Mike Weber
12:15 and Anthony Valensik from JGG
12:17 to talk a little bit about how this works.
12:19 We can keep that short.
12:20 Hopefully I'm the longest-winded one.
12:22 But do you want to ask me anything first
12:24 or it's your meeting?
12:29 I think let's keep going
12:33 unless council members have...
12:37 Missy and Joe Berardi.
12:40 Missy from Columbus.
12:42 Berardi Partners, the architects.
12:50 Thank you, Madam President.
12:52 Thank you, Council.
12:58 I am with Berardi Partners.
13:00 We are an architecture firm.
13:02 We also have engineering and house.
13:04 A lot of our primary focus is historic rehabs,
13:07 which is one of the focuses that I have.
13:10 I've been in the firm that was started by my uncle
13:15 for about 15 years now.
13:17 A lot of the work that we've done over the years
13:20 is just built on a lot of relationships
13:22 that we've built throughout the history of the firm,
13:25 which dates back to 1979, so we're about 46 years old.
13:31 The relationship with Tom goes back many, many years
13:34 by chance, and then a lot of what we've been doing
13:38 with Liberty Development has been tied
13:40 to the Bulkley Building and the Lakewood School.
13:45 A lot of my history within the firm
13:47 also ties back to my relationship with the SHPO office.
13:50 So I've actually worked with SHPO.
13:52 I've been a third-party consultant.
13:54 We've done numerous historic projects throughout the state.
13:57 Here recently, we've been working on the West Side Market,
14:00 where we were the design architect
14:02 that submitted for the original NPS Part 2,
14:05 which was approved and turned it over to DLR
14:09 and have remained a partner with the project.
14:12 We are also working on the Artcraft Building,
14:15 both projects that I've been actively involved in,
14:18 and also been working on the Rose Building,
14:22 which is at the corner of Prospect and 9th.
14:25 So my history is really tied into a lot of the historic rehab
14:29 throughout the city of Cleveland and surrounding areas.
14:35 I'm Melissa O'Spires.
14:36 As you said, I'm a project executive
14:38 and director of operations at Verardi.
14:40 I've been there about nine years,
14:42 and I was the project manager on the Bulkley Building project
14:45 that Tom was talking about earlier with John T. Johnson.
14:48 And I've worked on all these other projects
14:50 that Joe mentioned as well.
14:58 So a lot of our concept for the project
15:01 was based on conversations we had with Drew Seiley,
15:04 who unfortunately is not here.
15:06 But the focus was really trying to preserve
15:09 the historic integrity of the school.
15:12 So one of the components that we talked about was,
15:14 you know, what is kind of the most important part of this?
15:17 As you're driving north and south on Warren,
15:19 we really wanted to focus on
15:21 trying to maintain the historic integrity.
15:27 So a lot of the discussion was, you know,
15:30 while this is not a historic tax credit project,
15:33 what can we do to really clean the building up?
15:36 It's a lot of landscaping.
15:38 It's really minor repointing, cleaning, new windows,
15:42 and really trying to bring it back
15:44 to its historic character.
15:47 One of the pieces that you'll see just beyond the entrance,
15:50 beyond the main entrance off to the side
15:52 is this new modern awning with glass structure.
15:56 So what we tried to do was incorporate
15:58 this new light transparent component
16:01 that serves as the main entrance into the building.
16:04 The philosophy behind that,
16:06 and this again is just a conceptual design,
16:09 but the idea was to kind of create this open atmosphere,
16:13 something that's very inviting for the public
16:15 so that as you're driving up the drive,
16:18 it signifies not only the main entrance,
16:21 but the opportunity to enter into a very public realm
16:25 within the city hall.
16:27 If you jump to the next slide.
16:30 This is just a better view of the main entrance
16:33 that we designed with the awning,
16:35 and you can also see kind of the site plan.
16:38 So we're adding parking to the front,
16:40 restriping and regrading the back.
16:42 So it's really trying to create this very pedestrian
16:45 kind of walking environment, very inviting.
16:49 We're trying to also create this very accessible entrance
16:53 something that the original historic structures
16:55 really struggled with.
17:00 So this is the main floor plan.
17:02 There is a grade elevation,
17:04 so the main entrance lobby is kind of that space
17:10 It's got the double doors along with the vestibule.
17:13 As you enter into that space,
17:15 that's where security sits,
17:17 and then off to the right,
17:18 I think it's a little hard to see,
17:20 but off to the right,
17:21 there is a concierge desk,
17:23 which will allow any customer
17:25 or public facing occupant to come in,
17:30 and then there's an elevator just beyond,
17:34 along with the stairs,
17:35 so that provides full access into the building.
17:37 So we're really trying to create this open environment,
17:40 really try to create this very dynamic space
17:43 that allows for the public
17:45 to kind of come in and interact with any public official.
17:50 As you kind of walk into the space,
17:52 you also feel secure as a building occupant,
17:55 somebody that works in the space.
17:57 There's always a security guard.
17:59 The police department will actually have an office
18:02 on the main level with the window that looks down,
18:05 so it kind of plays into the security.
18:08 As you enter into the main area,
18:10 I'm sure you get up the stairs and the elevators,
18:13 this is what we really defined
18:15 as the public portion of the project.
18:18 So this is the building department,
18:20 this is public works,
18:22 vital statistics and water, finance.
18:26 So the idea is to kind of keep this open,
18:29 kind of allow occupants to kind of enter in,
18:34 experience the space, they can get in there,
18:37 talk to the officials that they need to.
18:40 Each department will also,
18:42 whether it's on the first floor or the second floor,
18:44 we're trying to create equitable spaces,
18:46 so conference rooms, offices, gender-neutral bathrooms,
18:51 so if you have a mother that's nursing,
18:55 there's opportunities for somebody to have privacy
18:58 as they're pumping.
19:02 So the idea again is try to keep this as open,
19:06 but secure it as you walk through the first floor.
19:18 Second floor, this is where you have the break room
19:21 that sits above the entry lobby.
19:24 You have city council chambers with a small assembly space,
19:28 which opens up into the rotunda,
19:30 which is this really nice historic space.
19:33 Large volume, we've got the historic stairs
19:35 that kind of lead down to the first floor
19:37 and also provide exit.
19:40 We also have the mayor's chambers
19:43 along with the law director,
19:44 so we were really playing around with the adjacencies.
19:47 A lot of those conversations happened with Drew Seiley
19:50 and the various departments within City Hall.
19:56 This would be a much more private, I guess, floor,
19:59 so the public would try to keep things at the public
20:02 or customer service needs
20:04 were more on the first floor,
20:06 and then this would be more important for staff.
20:18 So a lot of this is trying to respect the historic nature
20:22 both on the inside and the outside,
20:24 but the reality is with the partitions,
20:26 with the finishes that we're looking at,
20:28 this is going to feel like a brand new space.
20:31 We're really trying to just upgrade the opportunity
20:34 to take a historic building
20:36 and really put in brand new use into it
20:39 and kind of look at this building as,
20:42 which was originally constructed in, I think, 1899
20:48 and give it another 50-year-plus lifespan.
20:51 So we believe this is really taking a very sustainable approach
20:56 because we're not demoing it.
20:58 We're looking at this as an opportunity
21:00 to bring new life into it,
21:02 and this is really at a crucial juncture in the city,
21:06 and it's really kind of centered very nicely.
21:11 Did you explain that the first, that building,
21:13 there are actually two buildings they put together,
21:18 So one of the things that we noticed
21:20 when we were doing all of this,
21:22 and I think it's so cool, and again, I go that route,
21:25 and I know you'll stop me if I go down the wrong way,
21:27 but if these, you could tell they had more money
21:30 when they built these buildings than we did,
21:32 than they did in the small one
21:33 that we had already redeveloped.
21:35 The ceiling heights, the windows are much larger.
21:39 The design, like that octagon over there,
21:41 that, you know, they just did things in this building.
21:44 They spent, you could just tell,
21:46 even that relative dollars.
21:48 These buildings are, they're beautiful,
21:51 and if, with the right use, not functionally obsolete,
21:54 something like this.
21:55 Now, there's not a very strong office market.
21:58 You know, you can't, it just isn't,
22:00 and we've all been reading about that,
22:01 so this is a use that, in a stronger market,
22:05 there'd be a lot of opportunity to do that.
22:07 There's less opportunity in today's market,
22:09 but this is a great showing you,
22:11 if somebody who needed this square footage,
22:14 This isn't something anybody's married to.
22:17 This is something I would fully expect.
22:19 I'm guessing, has anybody seen this before,
22:22 or is this the first time?
22:23 I think you're seeing it for the first time, aren't you?
22:25 I don't know that, but...
22:28 I think it would be the first time
22:29 for most councilmembers, yes.
22:30 Yeah, yeah, so, you know,
22:32 I'm sure you're just trying to figure out
22:33 what those departments are and everything,
22:35 so as you digest it,
22:37 you're gonna have your own thoughts on how this stuff works,
22:41 and maybe somebody else will, too.
22:43 But from what we know now, this is a workable,
22:45 this is what we're basing all of our proposal on the price.
22:51 So we would build, you know, this design,
22:53 your finishes, and what you want done to the building.
22:56 This doesn't show HVAC, you know,
22:59 we have our own system planned.
23:01 Your building department might say
23:02 they like something different, you know, whatever.
23:04 There could be a number of changes to it
23:07 that are floor plan or intrinsic components of the building.
23:13 But the suggestion, too, that we turn it around
23:19 would be based around this floor plan
23:21 and the entrance way with the elevators
23:23 and, you know, all the sort of accents and stuff.
23:27 So, I don't, again, I don't know
23:32 if you want to ask us anything now,
23:36 but the pricing of all of this,
23:38 so to give you an idea of where we,
23:40 would really be best described by JGJ.
23:43 They do a lot, I mean, their company's doing
23:45 over $100 million a year
23:46 and a lot of this type of work.
23:48 But more importantly to me, they've done it for us
23:50 and we've been under budget.
23:52 So, I feel, and I'm very comfortable
23:54 with how much they've spent a lot of time on this
23:56 back when it was first federal of Lakewood
23:58 and this plan, so they know these buildings
24:00 probably better than I do, and I know them pretty well.
24:03 So, if it's okay with you, I'll bring it.
24:06 Let's introduce, so Mike Weber and his brother
24:09 are the second generation JGJ.
24:12 Mike Weber's, you know, his kids and my kids
24:14 go to school together, Lakewood resident.
24:16 Anthony, we kind of like Anthony
24:18 probably because he's smarter than Mike,
24:20 but I won't say that on a public record.
24:22 So, yeah, nice to meet you.
24:25 I'm one of the owners of John G. Johnson.
24:27 Anthony's actually an owner also.
24:29 I handle the director of construction,
24:32 vice president construction.
24:34 I oversee operations.
24:35 Once a job becomes a real job.
24:37 And Anthony Valenzic here,
24:39 he handles the pre-construction budgeting
24:42 and helps with the design teams
24:44 in terms of establishing budgets and estimates.
24:47 Yeah, look, Mike probably hasn't walked
24:50 through this building too much,
24:51 but I've spent, as Tom said,
24:53 since 2018 helping out First Federal Lakewood.
24:56 I walked through with a couple of residential developers
24:58 to look at multifamily.
25:00 I spent, you know, a couple of years
25:02 renovating the building next door,
25:04 the smaller building.
25:05 When we say we have an understanding
25:07 of what's hidden in all these walls and floors,
25:10 I've personally crawled around an attic up there
25:12 and looked at everything.
25:13 So I have a really good understanding
25:15 of what it takes to renovate this space.
25:19 The cost we are presenting is very valid
25:22 because we've got several active projects
25:26 People always get concerned about renovations
25:28 and the unknowns that go into them.
25:30 For us, it's about getting a hands-on experience,
25:33 looking at all of the unknowns,
25:35 the possibilities, the risks
25:36 that come up with renovating it.
25:38 Mike and I are currently under construction
25:41 on a project in downtown Cleveland.
25:43 We're turning 46,000 square feet
25:45 of an old building that was put in place in 1940.
25:50 We've gutted it down to the studs.
25:52 Very similar cost per square foot structure
25:54 that we're talking about here.
25:56 It's a process that we know.
25:58 Municipal work for our company.
26:00 We've done work with Eastlake,
26:02 City of Worcester, Strongsville.
26:05 Am I missing a couple?
26:09 On the municipal side of our business
26:11 is something we feel very strongly about.
26:13 We've been around since 1943.
26:15 So everything you guys have already heard
26:17 about our team with the way Tom has described it
26:20 much more eloquently than we can.
26:22 But if there's any questions related to cost
26:24 or the project, have me to answer them.
26:27 I think we're very familiar with
26:29 the prevailing wage, compliance, union agreements.
26:33 So those are all second nature to us also.
26:41 Council members, questions?
26:47 Do we have more presentation
26:48 or are we at just question part?
26:51 I think we're at the question part.
26:52 So, you know, we really, this is,
26:55 we appreciate your time,
26:56 and it seems like we were invited
26:58 to come in and talk to this about.
26:59 So we wanted to show you what the proposal was
27:01 and then just have any dialogue you want.
27:04 So this is where, I would say
27:05 we're at the dialogue part, yeah.
27:13 So I guess one first question that I have is,
27:18 you know, with this site plan
27:19 and you're saying about the finishes could change,
27:21 you're not married to any of the layout.
27:24 So how do you come up with the pricing
27:29 then if things aren't finalized?
27:33 Well, so I think this is a terrific baseline,
27:37 This was done, just we didn't come up with this.
27:39 This was done interacting with the folks
27:41 that work for you and work with you.
27:43 So I, not to, I mean, anything can change
27:46 and then you have to sit down
27:47 and you draw it and you price it out again
27:50 and then you talk about it.
27:52 You know, as an example,
27:53 if you said to me, Tom, you know,
27:56 that office is way too big down there.
27:58 We want to put it, we want to divide it into two.
28:00 Then we price out a wall
28:02 and the paint that goes with it
28:04 and the flooring that goes with it
28:05 and the HVAC ducts that change with it
28:07 and whatever we're doing with it
28:09 and we give you a price.
28:10 It could be something,
28:13 you want to be able to walk on the,
28:16 so the lobby when you walk in,
28:18 you know, that, I at one point said,
28:21 what a great place to put a little patio
28:22 on the second floor, right?
28:24 If you wanted to do that,
28:25 then you do different loads.
28:26 We have the engineers in house.
28:28 We calculate the difference
28:29 and what would that cost to do it?
28:32 And then you folks,
28:34 I would expect you folks would say,
28:37 That's worth it because or it isn't.
28:41 We have a specific HVAC heating
28:44 and cooling system in here.
28:48 or worked on a project with Baldwin Wallace.
28:50 They absolutely did not like what,
28:52 this was not this architectural firm,
28:54 but some colleges really like a certain,
28:57 it's a high velocity system.
29:00 They had problems with it.
29:01 So they did not want to use it.
29:02 So we had to go back
29:03 and have our mechanical engineers redesign
29:07 a different system for them
29:08 because that's what they wanted.
29:09 And I think what they wanted was actually
29:11 a little bit less money,
29:13 or I can't remember if it was less money or more money,
29:15 but that's the way the process would work.
29:17 You would say to us, you know,
29:20 we would like to change,
29:21 we don't think that this is big enough
29:23 or we don't need this space
29:25 or we need, could be anything from that to finishes,
29:29 you know, we want all mowing.
29:32 Then we could go with all mowing
29:34 and we've priced that.
29:35 But what we have in here is a really good baseline
29:37 and you don't know what that is yet.
29:38 So when you know that,
29:40 then you'll be able to respond to us and say,
29:43 this is something that we think you're overdoing,
29:47 but it's going to be a really good baseline for you.
29:55 Council members, too big.
29:58 I have, actually, I have a couple of questions.
30:01 Can you talk a little bit about the survey,
30:04 any of you, including Mr. Storey,
30:06 can you talk a little bit about the survey
30:08 that was done with the staff and their needs
30:13 and what you found there?
30:15 Does it seem like we're increasing,
30:17 like they're tight on space
30:19 or, oh, they could probably use the same amount of space
30:22 or, wow, they really have a whole lot of space
30:24 that they're not even using over there?
30:27 So I thought Verardi did that,
30:29 but Drew did it mostly because he used to work here
30:31 and I think he knew everybody.
30:33 But John, do you know how those interviews went
30:36 Because it's pretty specific in here.
30:38 I can speak on a high level.
30:39 I didn't sit in on all of them.
30:41 I sat in on a few of them,
30:42 but it was essentially around Robin.
30:46 I don't know if you want to take over, Angie,
30:48 because you may have been in more.
30:51 Thank you, Council.
30:52 So, yeah, Mr. Stiley met with each department individually,
30:57 got a count on how many employees were there,
30:59 and just asked what their specific needs were.
31:02 For example, asked the building department
31:04 what kind of style do you like to have arrangement,
31:07 and the building commissioner says
31:09 he likes to have an open floor plan.
31:11 So those kind of conversations occurred.
31:14 They walked the building to look at what was where
31:17 and the sizes, but basically asked
31:20 how many desks do you need?
31:23 What's your storage?
31:24 What kind of storage do you need?
31:26 The building department has transferred
31:27 a lot of stuff over to digital,
31:29 so they don't need as much space anymore
31:31 as they've had in the past.
31:33 So they were pretty much,
31:34 they were high level conversations,
31:36 but I think they gave enough information
31:38 to allow them to design something
31:40 that would meet the needs of what we have now
31:44 and provide a little space, a little extra space.
31:47 So we know the building is larger
31:49 than what the administrative side has right now,
31:52 but we are still doing the calculations
31:54 that Councilwoman Strievig has asked for
31:56 in regard to each department and what the increase is.
31:59 So we will have that for you at the next meeting.
32:01 Can I just add one thing too?
32:02 I think this dovetails as well off
32:04 before Angie's time here
32:05 when Weber Murphy Fox first came on the scene,
32:08 there was the same exact high level
32:11 and then the focus on a department by department basis,
32:15 which was the basis for their original report.
32:18 So to me it was kind of a handing of baton
32:22 from that original report to the Liberty folks.
32:27 I am interested in that because we talk obviously
32:31 a lot about making sure that our female police officers
32:36 have a space right now
32:40 that really they don't have a space
32:43 to do their jobs the best.
32:46 And so we're also concerned about that
32:49 because we want to recruit,
32:50 and we've talked about this with the chief,
32:52 the very top of the line people for that department.
32:56 And I also think that that's important
32:57 for every department in the city, right?
32:59 So when we start to look at new spaces
33:03 for the law department and the building department
33:05 and the planning department and every other,
33:07 the finance department and every other department,
33:10 are we giving those folks the same importance
33:18 I guess I'm also looking for like
33:20 what kind of upgrades are they gonna get
33:22 in addition to maybe space?
33:24 Or if they don't need more space,
33:26 are they getting better access to, I don't know,
33:31 internet or whatever amenities that they would need?
33:38 I just want to address two items.
33:41 The other part of this was that,
33:43 as part of those conversations,
33:44 we went through various plan iterations,
33:47 and we really were strategic about the adjacencies
33:51 between the different departments,
33:53 and those were part of the discussions as well.
33:55 So it wasn't just isolated to head count.
33:58 It was the mayor having direct access to the law director.
34:01 It was the building department having direct access
34:05 to the planning department.
34:06 So it goes above and beyond just the head counts
34:10 or the square footages.
34:11 So we were trying to be very strategic
34:13 and really methodical about how we were trying
34:16 to address the different adjacencies
34:18 and making sure that the public facing components
34:21 were all on the first floor,
34:22 and then you move into the more secluded second floor.
34:26 And then the other part of the conversation
34:29 that we really tried to strive for
34:31 was trying to create equitable spaces
34:34 that are never going to be fully equal
34:36 just based on the dynamics of the historic building,
34:39 the way the walls hit,
34:41 the different components within the mullions,
34:45 but we're trying to create equitable spaces
34:47 for every department so that there's a lay down area.
34:50 There's kind of like a workspace
34:53 with a coffee machine or a copier.
34:56 So we're really taking a lot of different ideas
35:00 and trying to take different approaches
35:02 to try to create these spaces
35:03 that try to be as equal as possible.
35:10 access to the different amenities within the space,
35:14 adding the elevators so that it hits all the floors.
35:17 So there was a lot of time and effort that was spent
35:19 trying to strategically locate these things.
35:22 So it was easy to navigate through the spaces.
35:27 One thing too is as they work through the design,
35:29 they'll do phase reviews.
35:31 So everything doesn't all of a sudden,
35:33 you're stuck with something.
35:34 They'll do like 25% drawings,
35:39 Everybody gets a shot to take a look at the drawings
35:43 So you can make adjustments with whoever
35:45 as the design goes along.
35:48 So that was the process,
35:50 and it's a pretty standard process.
35:52 It really does start with talking to people
35:54 and hearing what they have to say,
35:56 having some experience knowing that sometimes
35:58 people will ask for more than they need
36:00 or some people are afraid to ask for anything
36:02 so they don't ask for enough.
36:04 And an office function,
36:06 we've been involved in municipal projects.
36:09 You have a pretty good idea of what somebody's going to need
36:14 And I don't know how you ultimately,
36:18 whether there's going to be meetings like that,
36:20 if this is something that you decide is a good fix
36:23 and you want to continue to do it,
36:24 I don't know whether it's going to be in this meeting
36:26 or if you form a committee to sit down
36:28 and review where we're at during those 25, 50%.
36:31 You know, however you want to do it,
36:33 be a part of the process, you'll know.
36:36 But the other thing that you don't see just lines,
36:40 you have to imagine yourself walking into this building.
36:42 And with this, this should help you a little bit.
36:44 Like, hey, I'm going to...
36:45 You can kind of picture walking through here.
36:48 The thing we don't talk about enough,
36:51 but the quality of life, it changes everybody.
36:55 People that when they like going to where they're going to work.
36:58 So that is something you will consider as we're designing this.
37:01 If you think we've missed it on some point,
37:05 that it really will be a test of how well this project works,
37:10 all the folks that work here, how they feel.
37:13 Awesome. Thank you.
37:14 My second question is, can any of you talk to me about parking,
37:18 which of course, as you know, as liquidates,
37:20 you know that parking is a premium here.
37:22 So can you talk about the number of spaces that you're going to add there?
37:28 John, do you know the exact number?
37:30 I know that we have...
37:31 I have it here somewhere.
37:32 So there's a site plan on here.
37:38 So there's a site plan.
37:40 So not using historic tax credits,
37:42 which is probably the right thing to do here.
37:44 Because sometimes historic tax credits cost you more than they're worth.
37:50 One of the things that you can do immediately,
37:52 not using tax credits, is the parking lot out front.
37:56 And there's a parking lot that you already own,
37:58 that you have access to, that's behind Starbucks,
38:02 that's not on this site plan.
38:05 I know my friend, George Anthony, who has this property across the street.
38:09 I think he offered even more parking, but we are on a bus line.
38:12 So I don't know the number either.
38:13 I didn't count it before we came.
38:15 But I know we have quite a bit of adjacent parking,
38:18 and then quite a bit down the street.
38:20 If the schools would let you park, then you've got unlimited parking,
38:23 because that grant is right behind us.
38:25 I shouldn't say unlimited, but much more than that.
38:28 I think if we left the schools out of it though,
38:30 if you could give me a number of how many spaces are there now,
38:34 and how many will we have when this project,
38:37 if this project goes through, if this is the way we're going to go.
38:40 So I'm hearing it's almost 70.
38:41 I think it's 66 to 70 spaces.
38:44 And then my last question.
38:48 I notice that you have the gender-neutral restrooms,
38:54 and I'm wondering if this is an industry standard now.
38:58 The gender-neutral restrooms, is this an industry standard now,
39:01 or is this something that you're doing because we are liquid?
39:06 I think I don't know exactly why we're doing it here.
39:09 I don't know that it's standard.
39:10 I think it's pretty common.
39:11 It's becoming more common whether it's just,
39:14 I don't know if it's a cost issue or people are driving it,
39:17 but I know that that's in the plan here.
39:21 So I see it in a lot of places though.
39:26 Through the Chair, I want to get back to a question you asked two ago.
39:30 To answer your question, I'm not speaking to this,
39:32 but absolutely this is intentional.
39:34 It's one of the things we've been focusing on,
39:36 understanding the concerns and the questions about the gender-neutral
39:41 bathrooms and for sure in a facility that we're going to inhabit,
39:46 So as it relates to this project,
39:48 it's been right out of the chute what we've been planning for.
39:52 As it relates to your previous question,
39:53 and this is an important one because I think it speaks to how we got here,
39:57 and we've gone over this for almost a year and a half now.
40:01 The initial Weber Murphy Fox study was conducted to try to solve the
40:06 And what I mean by that is we knew we had a spatial deficiency.
40:11 It was from that report where we realized that the cost there,
40:15 the cost to remedy such situation didn't really truly fully assist
40:21 or capture what we needed to do on a global basis to help all
40:26 And the ones that come to most of mind,
40:28 and Renee can speak to this,
40:29 is obviously over in the annex and the fact that we have literally
40:34 people in what would otherwise be closets and many other city halls.
40:38 And the mayor did not think that was right.
40:40 And the mayor decided at that moment to pivot and to try to look at
40:44 a more global encompassing solution at whatever level of cost it
40:48 might be to figure out what is doable.
40:52 The tightrope walk as always, and we face this,
40:54 Angie and I face this in Sandusky as well,
40:57 is you have the fact that you want to build the best project you
41:01 can to attract and retain the best employees you can,
41:06 but you're also using taxpayer dollars.
41:09 And it's a unique set of circumstances that anybody who works in the
41:14 public, private or nonprofit sector that is using taxpayer dollars,
41:18 it's always paramount in your mind.
41:20 So I just want you to know that there was never treating one
41:24 department above another or JV level of varsity.
41:28 It was never like that at all.
41:29 It was always the mayor's intent and her push and the aim that drove
41:34 all of us here collectively was focused on that to make sure that
41:38 whatever we ended up with,
41:39 it was a darn good ending for our employees and for the citizens of
41:46 For what it's worth,
41:47 I don't know that we were ever told what to do is really,
41:50 could you help get what would you do?
41:52 And that's where the interviews came in from and so forth.
41:54 And so I don't know how much back and forth on that design there
41:57 was, but I think most of that was on our end to,
42:01 to suggest what needed to be done.
42:05 When were those interviews conducted?
42:07 It's been a little while now.
42:08 So they, they could probably be a year ago.
42:13 the Webber Murphy Fox ones go back several years because Sean
42:16 Leininger was the driver.
42:18 I you'll have to remind me cause I wasn't involved in all of them.
42:21 But when Angie came on board.
42:25 I'll have to look at the calendar.
42:27 Last calendar year.
42:28 Nine, nine months ago.
42:29 Maybe just like some.
42:30 I feel as like there was longer than that.
42:32 That drew, did the interviews, our interviews.
42:36 Anyway, not two, three years, but not six months.
42:41 And then, so we would own the,
42:44 the product of Webber Murphy Fox.
42:48 we've seen the space study, you know, renderings.
42:51 I'm not sure if we have the entire product from them in the shared
42:56 It probably is in terms of.
42:59 Cause I know David's all from Webber Murphy Fox had.
43:04 Done a potential rearranging here to try to make things better.
43:08 And then that was still not quite, you know, not quite it.
43:13 But then there was the talk about the small build out for the
43:16 police potentially.
43:18 And as we've been going through this.
43:20 But we would own that entire project, but we don't own the.
43:25 It's your work product, right?
43:27 That would with doing the interviews and all of that
43:31 information would be owned by Liberty.
43:35 We don't own anything, right?
43:36 We all come into this world and go out and leave it all behind
43:42 I was thinking about Kyle's question about.
43:47 Why the pressure and who's putting on pressure and all.
43:50 And it's, it's kind of like dating, you know, you want to keep
43:53 dating as long as they answer the phone and say, yeah,
43:55 Saturday night's great.
43:56 And they start saying, ah, so look, all of this stuff.
44:00 If we're really working together not to do it, I'm not asking
44:04 But if we're working together to find out if this is a great
44:07 solution and ultimately the best solution.
44:10 There's no, there's nothing being, there will be nothing that
44:14 That's not an issue.
44:16 There was a little bit of a closed, you know,
44:19 you're closing yourself off a little bit when you think you're
44:21 going to go compete with the world.
44:23 And we know more than anybody else.
44:25 I'm not going to go, the Browns aren't going to go give
44:27 the Falcons their playbook.
44:29 We have a pretty good playbook.
44:31 And it's really, we've had a lot of time to deal with it.
44:33 But that doesn't, that's not you.
44:35 We're not on two sides of a table negotiating with each
44:39 We're trying to figure out, does this really work for you?
44:42 And that comes down to this council and representing the
44:45 city and whether or not you believe that that's right.
44:48 My opinion is just an opinion.
44:50 I've been doing this a while.
44:51 I'm excited because I think you're going to come,
44:53 but I don't know that, right?
44:54 So anything I have that you need to know to make those
44:57 kinds of decisions, there's no, it's not about ownership.
45:00 I kind of, you know, that's not something we should be
45:05 I do feel like we need to look at that just because as
45:09 we make this decision and we're thinking if we were to not
45:13 go with this building, then all of that data and all of
45:17 that knowledge, and we wanted to go with a different
45:20 solution, we would be starting over with those
45:25 So I do think it's something that we need to think
45:29 That's something that people aren't pretty accustomed
45:31 to doing if you wanted to take a different route.
45:33 That's not the hardest part of all of this.
45:35 You know, sitting down with everybody is,
45:37 it's actually quite eye-opening sometimes.
45:40 And sometimes good to do that once in a while.
45:43 I see Council Member Hamilton-Steiner had a question.
45:46 Thank you, Madam Chair.
45:48 So I want to go back to the parking because this was
45:50 something that I did have a resident last week reach
45:53 out and had questions about the parking situation.
45:56 And maybe this is a tag team.
45:58 The administration needs to also provide a response.
46:01 Is it safe to assume that there is the plan to have
46:06 one parking space per employee on site and an
46:10 additional four, you know, residents or visitors to
46:17 Or is the plan that there is not going to be enough
46:21 parking for both visitors to City Hall and City
46:26 Hall business, meetings, people that come through,
46:30 and employees, and employees would have to park
46:34 elsewhere, and that would need to be secured.
46:37 So you're asking a really complicated question,
46:42 And every city that you would talk to or township is
46:45 going to have a different response.
46:47 Lakewood should be a lot different than, I don't
46:51 know, some farm town, right?
46:55 I don't know the count of people that actually,
46:57 I don't know that every employee drives here.
47:00 Public transportation is a big deal.
47:02 Walking is a big deal.
47:03 That's part of this.
47:04 You know, the other piece in the back of my mind,
47:06 I alluded to it the last time, was the walkability
47:09 and what does this do for downtown Lakewood,
47:12 You could, you know, those bus lines that cross
47:14 there, I don't know how many people are coming
47:16 along those bus lines.
47:17 So parking is important.
47:18 I don't think that this site was designed to a
47:22 It was designed to show what we could do on
47:25 Lakewood is the most densely populated city, I
47:28 think, between New York and Chicago.
47:31 You could do structured.
47:32 But, you know, then that gets into quite some
47:35 Parking is important because there's been
47:37 times when I've come and I've been jiving
47:39 around waiting and I think Maureen ended up
47:41 leaving one day and I grabbed her spot or
47:43 someone I knew was leaving and I grabbed
47:45 their spot as I'm coming here to do, you
47:48 know, council business.
47:49 So I would argue that parking, if this is
47:52 going to be the solution that we decide on,
47:55 parking needs to be part of that solution.
47:59 And if that has not been thought about, I
48:01 think that is a big sort of, oh, we forgot
48:05 We forgot those considerations of that.
48:08 So I think we need all of that.
48:12 No, parking has been a very significant
48:14 part of these conversations.
48:15 It has not been, it's not a leftover,
48:17 not forgotten about.
48:19 I'm just suggesting that in a city like
48:22 Lakewood, that is a very difficult thing
48:25 to, you can't just produce one per whatever,
48:29 You know, you guys are doing that project
48:31 and it's, parking is a tough one.
48:33 You're the developer and I would expect
48:35 that you would have thought about that
48:37 and considered those things and presented
48:40 at least some options to the administration.
48:42 Absolutely, we've thought about it.
48:44 And we think that the parking that's
48:46 associated with this project, you're going
48:48 to find it to be enough, particularly
48:50 with the lot that you already own that
48:52 has the path, I mean, you walk right to it.
48:54 So if you decide that you need more parking
48:57 than this, number one, I don't know that
48:59 there's a site in Lakewood that's got
49:01 more parking than we do.
49:02 So that's going to be even a tougher
49:04 problem to help solve.
49:05 I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
49:07 So the solution to that, if it's one
49:09 per whatever and we don't have enough,
49:11 is structured parking, which is about
49:15 That was the next question.
49:18 But compared to any other alternative
49:20 that I know of, and one of the
49:22 reasons we like Cozumel is we're one
49:24 of the only restaurants in town that
49:26 has parking around it like that.
49:29 But I think when you have an opportunity
49:32 to look at it, we absolutely have spent
49:34 a lot of time on parking.
49:36 It's one of the reasons that we think
49:38 that not doing the historic tax credit
49:40 program while addressing those
49:42 historic issues is better not to do it.
49:44 It's because you can get more parking.
49:46 If we could pick up a few more,
49:50 We can design and show you a
49:52 structured parking on this.
49:54 If we could add the spots to it,
49:56 that's one of those things you
49:58 could come back and say, yeah,
50:02 Yeah, no, I was not necessarily,
50:04 actually that was the question.
50:06 Thank you for throwing out
50:08 the structured parking, if there would
50:10 be structured parking, but I do think
50:12 that parking is important to residents
50:14 and it will be important to
50:16 the employees, I think.
50:20 It is, and I also heard from
50:22 residents who live in the, around
50:24 the area that were concerned about that, but
50:26 Director Barrington, you had something to add.
50:28 Thank you, Councilwoman Keppel.
50:30 We'll address anything.
50:32 So parking absolutely
50:34 was considered, one of the mayor's
50:36 concerns with this property is the lack
50:38 of parking, so it was something that was
50:40 considered from the beginning.
50:42 We did do an analysis
50:44 which we can present at the next meeting
50:46 in regard to how many visitors for a
50:48 department, you guys had suggested that, we thought it was a good
50:50 idea and we did it, so we can,
50:52 that should be in the file, but we'll
50:54 put it within our presentation
50:56 and talk about the parking.
50:58 What needs to be determined yet is exactly
51:00 how many spaces we want to leave to just
51:02 be public parking spaces, and
51:04 if there's a need for any of the staff to
51:06 move to another lot, I mean, that
51:10 It might be necessary,
51:12 but number one is the residents
51:14 and their availability to be able to park and get
51:16 into the, get into buildings.
51:18 But we'll provide that information, number
51:20 of employees, number of parking spaces,
51:24 visitors to City Hall at the next
51:26 meeting. Thank you. Can you also, I
51:28 think I saw, there were a couple
51:30 of the door counts were in the folder, but I'm not sure
51:32 all of them were, so if you can add that,
51:34 if it's not in there, please add that.
51:36 And then, I do have a question, so
51:40 can I, let me follow up on this because it's related.
51:44 How many of these parking spaces,
51:46 because I see the ones that are behind the
51:48 north building, and I know that
51:50 the Quilting Bee, that was part of their moving
51:52 there so they could have parking, so how many of these
51:54 would be reserved for the
51:56 customers of the north building?
52:00 Well, that would, we could have that
52:02 conversation. I don't think that
52:06 I don't know that any of those are reserved for
52:08 Quilting Bee in the back,
52:10 maybe some along the side, and I
52:12 know that there might be the ones
52:14 that kind of go into the smaller building,
52:16 you know, in the back there you could see, those are
52:20 Some of the spots on this
52:22 chart would also be used by
52:24 the customers visiting the north
52:26 building? Correct, right. Okay.
52:28 So the parking that we really
52:30 need for the north building is the
52:32 parking on the east, you know,
52:34 the front of the building and along the side there,
52:40 evenings, there's nobody there, so that's
52:42 going to be overflow for you, things like
52:44 that would happen, you know, that, people will park
52:46 and their visitors will park there if they're coming
52:48 to an evening meeting or weekends or something like
52:50 that. Okay, and then when
52:52 the, with the interviews with the staff,
52:56 when we asked about work styles, were
52:58 they asked if, about their ability to
53:00 work from home and if they would like to?
53:06 because I know the concerns about parking here,
53:08 have we offered any incentives for people
53:10 to take alternate transportation?
53:16 and whoever can jump in. I'm not aware of
53:20 to use alternative means of transportation.
53:24 specifically within my department, and I'm sure
53:26 some others also, we do
53:28 provide the ability for a flexible
53:30 schedule so they can work from home
53:32 sometimes. We just want to make sure that the office
53:34 is covered and that we are meeting together
53:36 as a department to be able to, you know, run
53:38 the department sufficiently, but there are
53:40 many employees that take advantage of that
53:46 want to make a comment about the working from home.
53:50 wonderful, we are mainly
53:54 public resident service
53:58 And so for example,
54:00 income tax, finance,
54:02 building department, you can imagine
54:04 none of those employees could
54:06 could generally work from home.
54:12 but the rest of, you know, especially
54:14 income tax, vitals, water,
54:16 the residents all expect people
54:18 to be here for that. Yeah, and of course
54:20 public works needs to be in the snowplows.
54:22 So a very small number, I would
54:24 imagine. Yeah, I would just like to have those numbers.
54:26 Councilman, did you have another
54:28 question? Yes, I did. Thank you, Madam Chair.
54:30 And actually you asked
54:32 additional questions that I was
54:34 leaning towards, but I want to go back
54:40 do you actually have
54:42 that data? Do you have
54:44 transcripts of the interviews, or
54:46 is this more collective
54:50 you went through the process and asked these
54:52 questions? Like, is there actually
54:54 written data? Yeah, I think
54:56 that's what Madam Chair was asking
54:58 about, too. There would have
55:00 so Drew would have done those
55:02 physical interviews himself, and he wasn't
55:04 going to keep those to memory. I mean, that's
55:06 a process, right? It's just like
55:08 we're going to build you a house, and we sit
55:10 down and talk to you. So I'm sure that
55:12 we have notes that we took to do
55:16 again, this process
55:18 of finding out whether or not this is a great idea
55:20 or not, and we're happy to
55:22 talk to you about it and show you that stuff.
55:24 Whether it's a report to ourselves
55:28 probably could be done, but I'm sure
55:34 there's no magic to it,
55:36 but there has to be notes, otherwise
55:38 we wouldn't have been able to get to this point.
55:42 not always necessarily. It can be
55:44 you just remember qualitatively
55:46 you've processed it in your mind,
55:48 you're able to put it back there.
55:50 I'm just saying we're not really that smart.
55:52 We wouldn't be able to remember it.
55:54 I'm giving you too much credit then.
55:56 You probably are. I'm sure there's notes.
56:00 I don't know. It sounds like it's something that
56:02 perhaps, Madam Chair, that
56:06 if we wanted to be involved
56:08 in the process, if that's something that
56:10 we could work with Director
56:12 Barrington and even HR
56:16 that, and it just may be beneficial to
56:18 do that anyways, aside from this process,
56:20 because there might be some additional
56:22 pieces of information that we could get.
56:24 So it may be something that we may just
56:26 want to say we own it,
56:30 just something to consider.
56:32 Actually, I would hope that you would
56:34 feel like we're not just making
56:36 things up and we'll test as we go.
56:40 like it's a direction you want to go, my point was
56:42 as we go forward and we're looking at things
56:44 and questions are asked, there's no bad
56:48 I would hope that we would start, I'm trying
56:50 to start with everybody
56:52 in this room is trying to do the right thing for the city.
56:56 I actually think what we do
56:58 for a living is very, very valuable if you
57:00 do it right. I've been trained
57:02 that way. So I hope we all
57:04 start with, we're all trying to do the best thing for
57:06 the city. That means everything's shared
57:08 and we go along. So in the meantime,
57:12 trust us, this has done
57:14 pretty good, unless something's changed.
57:16 You want to verify things,
57:20 But in normal course of conversation
57:22 and moving along, that's all
57:26 If we have to prove ourselves
57:28 to you, we're happy to do what we've done before.
57:32 go back to a little bit, the work from home.
57:36 I may know the answer to this, but just from
57:38 your experience, you said there isn't a
57:40 strong office market
57:42 anymore. Can you speak to that a little bit
57:44 and why there isn't as strong of an office
57:48 Well, it depends on
57:50 where you are, number one.
57:52 Downtown Cleveland versus
57:54 Lakewood. I think Lakewood's got a leg
57:56 up. I think we're better than downtown
57:58 Cleveland. And I don't
58:00 bring data with me. If I'm going to speak to
58:02 something like that directly,
58:04 it'll be data. So most of what I'm
58:06 saying to you is intrinsic in the general
58:10 So I think there's a lot of data
58:12 about how bad office...
58:14 Now, you're also hearing things about it's coming
58:16 back in Sherwin-Williams, but that's downtown
58:18 Cleveland. In Lakewood,
58:20 you know, I know the rents that we were able
58:22 to achieve and what we did in the North
58:24 Building. And if that building, you know,
58:26 ten years ago were in Manhattan,
58:32 I guess the better question would be to ask Angie
58:34 how many people are calling for
58:36 office space in Lakewood, Ohio right now.
58:38 That's better data than I could give you.
58:42 it takes a little longer than you
58:44 would have expected relative
58:46 term, right? This isn't data again, but it's
58:48 been taking a little longer and you don't get
58:50 quite as much rent as you might have. That's all
58:56 supply side is another good question,
58:58 right? If we put a Class A office building
59:00 here, could we attract people to it?
59:04 about that, but if I have to write the
59:06 $16 million check to do it, that's a big
59:10 A round stone would have been...
59:12 You know, we tried to get a round stone here
59:14 and they wanted more space than we could
59:18 you don't see that very often.
59:20 That's pretty unique. At least
59:22 so far. But I think Angie might be able
59:24 to answer that question better than I could.
59:30 I don't know that I can answer the question better, but I will say
59:32 that I don't get a lot of calls for office space.
59:34 It's primarily service, retail,
59:36 that kind of industry,
59:46 And thank you, everyone,
59:52 first to kind of the development team and then more
59:56 The first thing is, I know this is
59:58 one of the earliest buildings in Lakewood, but why isn't it
1:00:06 when they laid the foundation, they didn't do it right?
1:00:10 question, because I look at this map and there is no
1:00:14 Do you see what I'm saying, though? Do you know
1:00:22 Because you do the math, right, when you lay
1:00:26 second thing is, and this is where
1:00:34 to make this development agreement thing
1:00:38 the city would need an owner's rep.
1:00:42 some sort of design representation.
1:00:44 Because these people are true professionals
1:00:46 and you're good at your jobs, but
1:00:50 contract with us in a way that reports to us.
1:00:52 You don't have the duty of a client service
1:00:58 where we talked about project
1:01:02 your professionalism, just you have a client
1:01:04 and your client would be Liberty, not the city of
1:01:06 liquid. It would be the city of liquid through
1:01:08 privity, but in reality we want someone to report to us.
1:01:12 thing I'm curious about is, and we went
1:01:14 through this costing exercise with
1:01:20 Limited, you know, so in construction
1:01:28 But some of the things that came up when
1:01:42 I guess maybe it's in decent
1:01:44 shape. I walked this building, I didn't see any
1:01:46 water in it, but if we're talking
1:01:48 about 50 years of useful life from
1:01:54 basement, the only report the city has
1:01:56 in its name is a phase one ESA. It says there's some
1:01:58 moisture mold in the basement.
1:02:02 the worst thing, but it just needs to be addressed.
1:02:06 kind of we're thinking here.
1:02:12 I mean, you see a bunch of units hanging
1:02:14 out of windows in this building. It looks
1:02:16 like it was slapdash with duct tape
1:02:18 kind of put together. So I'm assuming
1:02:20 there'd be a more, you know, I don't even
1:02:22 know where you put an air handler, right, or
1:02:24 boiler. What are you doing? So can you walk
1:02:26 through those three big building
1:02:28 components and then kind of what
1:02:30 the high level plan is for them?
1:02:36 The roof we have planned on
1:02:38 putting a new shingled roof on.
1:02:46 Those warranties I think from the manufacturers
1:02:50 I don't know that you're going to find a 50 year warranty
1:02:54 to the moisture in the basement,
1:03:00 waterproofing. So we're going to excavate and
1:03:04 waterproofing on those foundation
1:03:06 walls that we do know there are moisture
1:03:10 along those lines we're also going to take care
1:03:12 of the downspout piping that
1:03:14 right now is pretty non-existent.
1:03:18 you know, the monies associated
1:03:22 HVAC system, we're going to be
1:03:24 putting, you know, forced air units in here.
1:03:26 So you're not going to have a singular
1:03:30 that, you know, is going to be
1:03:32 20 feet by 15 feet wide. It's going to be
1:03:36 broken up by what we've been thinking
1:03:38 right now is going to be area. So every
1:03:40 department area on the floor plans
1:03:42 is going to have their own thermostat control.
1:03:46 isolated to the floor plans themselves
1:03:50 you're not going to have large boilers, coolers,
1:04:00 thinking that it would just be excavation
1:04:02 for the basement issue of one
1:04:04 of the walls. You don't think it's an issue that
1:04:06 would require? It's not, yeah, it's not around all
1:04:08 of the walls. One of the walls will have
1:04:10 some structural repointing done to it. But
1:04:14 75% of that basement is dry
1:04:18 And so what would be, you know,
1:04:20 we saw the first, and perhaps this is the design
1:04:22 question, maybe a construction question.
1:04:24 What's kind of the high level spec
1:04:30 and fit for the first and second floor.
1:04:34 So you can speak to that. But I don't think we, did we include
1:04:38 the lower level on this plan.
1:04:42 usable space. Half of the basement
1:04:44 was used by the Board of Ed for decades.
1:04:46 Higher ceilings and windows and all that.
1:04:52 doing everything, but I think it's about
1:04:54 22,000 square feet of second,
1:04:56 first and second floor space.
1:04:58 I don't know that we've programmed
1:05:00 the basement for people just yet.
1:05:02 Although it really could be
1:05:04 used, like I said, for decades.
1:05:10 the basement floors are going to be, you know, leveled.
1:05:12 So it's not, right now you kind of walk in there
1:05:14 and it's got some ups and downs.
1:05:16 It's going to be a storage space, but it is,
1:05:18 the elevator will access the basement.
1:05:20 It's going to be, you know, power, heated, cooled,
1:05:22 and some IT components will be down there.
1:05:26 plenty of space for storage and any other,
1:05:30 But it is going to be habitable.
1:05:36 And some of that is tied back
1:05:38 to some of the conversations with the departments.
1:05:40 Some departments are pretty
1:05:42 paper heavy, while others are going more
1:05:44 electronic. So that's part of the
1:05:50 Thank you. And this is more
1:05:54 broad question. I, you know,
1:06:02 The people that are assembled here
1:06:04 can do this project, they can do it well.
1:06:08 personal taunts about that.
1:06:12 The question I need more help
1:06:18 whether the city needs to do
1:06:20 this, right? If this is the
1:06:24 And the analysis to get us there.
1:06:28 And then some of the more nuanced
1:06:30 questions that my colleagues are asking
1:06:32 about parking and access and those
1:06:34 types of things I think are very important.
1:06:36 I do think they're a little bit further
1:06:38 down the line than maybe some of
1:06:42 So from my perspective, you know, and I
1:06:54 Lakewood houses of more office
1:06:56 space than we have right now for
1:07:00 In a world in which, you know,
1:07:02 square foot per employee seems
1:07:04 to be going down in municipal
1:07:14 point would be very helpful.
1:07:16 Secondly, I know Director Mahoney has
1:07:20 the annex across the street
1:07:22 and how some employees maybe don't have
1:07:26 they're also disconnected. I do think
1:07:32 percent of the business city hall
1:07:36 tax or water purposes. So there is
1:07:38 a little bit of a benefit of kind of a
1:07:40 quick in quick out, you know,
1:07:42 there, although it does create maybe some staff
1:07:44 disjointed things because they're across
1:07:46 the street. But I'm just saying it's not
1:07:48 all negative. There is some positive to it
1:07:56 I'd like to see more analysis
1:08:02 And like I said last time, I think 13,000
1:08:08 more than we need? Is that less than we need?
1:08:10 I have no frame of reference to know
1:08:22 that are persuasive, but I don't
1:08:24 know what kind of, you know, there's
1:08:26 accreditation organizations for law enforcement,
1:08:28 CALEA and other ones that probably have
1:08:30 some analysis and understanding. This is
1:08:32 where I think that the city could benefit, the district could benefit
1:08:38 approaches that they could give
1:08:40 us kind of a good analysis of those things.
1:08:42 And that's where I'm at, where I
1:08:54 Lakewood residents and how we spend their money
1:09:02 that a lot of them do their job well
1:09:04 and that, you know, enable us to
1:09:12 And I'm just being honest. So
1:09:14 I do think there's a way to work
1:09:16 with these folks and make this project work.
1:09:18 I just don't know if we need to do this project.
1:09:20 And that's what I, that's where I'm at.
1:09:22 I guess that's what I'm saying.
1:09:28 we've got about 15 minutes,
1:09:30 so I want to make sure we get to
1:09:32 other councilmembers. I see councilmember
1:09:36 Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for your presentation
1:09:40 In kind of a similar vein to
1:09:42 Council Vice President Baker.
1:09:44 You know, it's difficult to predict
1:09:46 what a city hall will look like
1:09:50 But, you know, certainly you could
1:09:52 speculate that there'll be reduced administrative
1:09:56 in more hybrid, in more hybrid environment
1:09:58 that's blending in-person services with
1:10:02 perhaps increased public engagement.
1:10:06 the City Hall of the Future could be
1:10:08 operate more like a community living room.
1:10:12 you know, in a city like Lakewood where
1:10:14 we don't have a particularly large
1:10:18 spaces, particularly indoor
1:10:28 adaptable to the extent that
1:10:30 there are convertible rooms
1:10:32 and convertible space so that
1:10:34 you know, if there was less
1:10:36 administrative space needs down the
1:10:42 cultural events and workshops
1:10:44 and public meetings and civic celebrations
1:10:46 and, you know, perhaps even private
1:10:50 Is that sort of adaptability something that's
1:10:52 being thought of with this design?
1:11:00 That's exactly what I ask myself.
1:11:08 you should know why you're doing it.
1:11:12 question, the infrastructure
1:11:14 that would be put in this building
1:11:16 will help it survive another hundred
1:11:20 building has a lot of opportunity
1:11:22 if you wanted to do something
1:11:24 different with it, like even tearing down
1:11:26 some walls and making some changes
1:11:30 building in the center of town.
1:11:40 got the HVAC running in it, whatever,
1:11:42 it's kept up as a great building.
1:11:48 if you got rid of the demising walls.
1:11:52 from my perspective, the yoga studios,
1:11:56 there's a lot of things that can be done in this building.
1:11:58 It's designed, and I think about it
1:12:00 in terms of the Taco Bell, right?
1:12:02 The Taco Bell effect is a Taco Bell is a Taco Bell.
1:12:04 It's always going to be a Taco Bell.
1:12:06 This building was built a hundred years ago
1:12:08 and a hundred years from now with the right improvement
1:12:10 in it. It could stand and it
1:12:18 do I think that it would, if you didn't
1:12:20 think about the fact that it goes empty?
1:12:24 I don't know that office is necessarily
1:12:28 If I did apartments in here,
1:12:30 maybe I would put my office in there.
1:12:32 They could fit together. But you're thinking,
1:12:34 and I think about that, one other thing,
1:12:36 one of my best friends is a very
1:12:44 data center sounds like it's going to be a big deal.
1:12:46 And he said, you know what?
1:12:48 As long as it's small, you'll never need a data center.
1:12:52 listening to him. I didn't get into
1:12:58 But what I know is that improved
1:13:02 the exterior walls, is what's important.
1:13:08 I think you probably could answer it better
1:13:10 than I could. But I feel like
1:13:12 there's options. And certainly public
1:13:14 spaces is well located for that
1:13:16 right in the middle of town. So anyway,
1:13:20 You know, I think this building
1:13:22 is actually a perfect example of adaptability.
1:13:24 The building started out as a
1:13:30 changing the office dynamic.
1:13:32 I think, you know, this building
1:13:36 They don't build buildings like this.
1:13:38 These two guys can probably
1:13:40 talk more about that. But, you know,
1:13:44 heavy timber tied to this. There's
1:13:46 stone walls. So this building
1:13:50 future. And I think the adaptability
1:13:52 of this, you know, is exemplified by
1:13:54 transition from school to office
1:13:58 potentially. And some of the spaces that
1:14:00 we've created offer some of that
1:14:02 flexibility and offer some different
1:14:04 spaces that could be used for a variety of
1:14:08 You can have meetings there. You can have different
1:14:14 or, you know, different community gatherings.
1:14:16 So I think there's a lot of opportunity
1:14:20 different uses and functions within the space
1:14:32 thank you to all my colleagues for
1:14:34 the questions. My disconnect on
1:14:38 in agreement with Councilman Baker on this,
1:14:40 kind of the, we're really far down the road
1:14:42 on this. I think, you know, getting into the details
1:14:46 convinced that this is the overall
1:14:48 right solution. So that's just what,
1:14:50 you know, where I'm coming from, where I'm struggling.
1:14:52 I think this, you're right,
1:14:54 everything lays out really nice. I'm confident
1:14:56 we could make this work. I'm just not
1:14:58 confident that this is the solution.
1:15:00 So just wanted to put that out there.
1:15:12 bringing the design and development team,
1:15:14 or rather the design and the
1:15:16 construction team. So it's good to meet all of you.
1:15:20 in-depth and thoughtful discussion.
1:15:22 And thanks to the administration for continuing
1:15:24 to share information and make
1:15:26 the case. So I just have a couple
1:15:30 layperson's questions. So on this
1:15:34 what the design currently is, what's proposed.
1:15:36 So on this rendering, if I'm looking at it correctly,
1:15:38 that's a new curb cut from Warren Road
1:15:40 into the site, and then there's a new
1:15:46 I know that there's a cut-through
1:15:48 path that a lot of walk-to-
1:15:54 neighborhoods across the way to Grant
1:15:56 Elementary, which is tucked behind there.
1:16:02 is this rendering from the main sidewalk
1:16:06 Okay. I think the answer is yes.
1:16:12 on the other slide you showed
1:16:16 but have you gotten deeply into the
1:16:18 landscape plan, probably not at this stage?
1:16:26 we don't have time to go through all my questions,
1:16:28 but I'll just kind of list rapid fire.
1:16:42 had of the floor plans on both floors?
1:16:44 It looked to me about the same as the
1:16:56 helpful translations of what
1:16:58 a thousand square feet means versus
1:17:02 Can you come up to the mic?
1:17:04 Can you talk to the mic because the recording
1:17:06 31,000 square feet is what the school
1:17:12 anybody know, maybe the administration,
1:17:14 you know, so if we were to move forward
1:17:16 with the project, you've got a new building department.
1:17:18 Is that the same amount of square feet,
1:17:20 less square feet, more square feet?
1:17:24 for the various departments.
1:17:30 just because we just got these plans that
1:17:32 I actually just got them to be able to do
1:17:34 the comparison per department. I don't have
1:17:36 that. But overall, there will
1:17:38 be more space for administration
1:17:40 than what is here, but I don't have the
1:17:42 per department right now. Okay. So
1:17:48 The existing city hall is 28,000 square
1:17:50 feet on my cheat sheet, and
1:17:52 this building's about 32, plus an addition.
1:17:56 Okay. So you're saying significantly more.
1:17:58 So I'm saying there's about
1:18:06 gives some order of magnitude.
1:18:08 That includes the end. On my...
1:18:12 That's number one. Number two is
1:18:16 is using the current building commission,
1:18:18 like an open floor plan. If the next
1:18:20 building commission doesn't want something else,
1:18:22 do we have that adaptability
1:18:24 or it's going to be, you know, we're going to have to
1:18:32 So yes. The way it's currently designed,
1:18:34 there's plenty of flexibility to add partitions
1:18:40 was to try to give every office
1:18:42 a window so you get natural
1:18:44 light, but we can easily flip
1:18:46 different spaces or open it up.
1:18:50 asking is a tricky question.
1:19:00 So you can't do that perfectly, but
1:19:12 and approaches. I think the
1:19:14 way we have it designed now, it's metal
1:19:20 There's different ways that we can take a look
1:19:22 at modular partition walls.
1:19:28 sort of sound transmission, creating
1:19:30 that privacy. So there's a little bit of
1:19:32 detail. Okay. No, that's fine. I just
1:19:34 wanted to get your take. And then ADA
1:19:36 accessibility. I mean, this is an 1899 building.
1:19:44 I appreciate the leadership of some of my colleagues
1:19:46 in the administration on that.
1:19:48 Are we aiming for 100 percent, or
1:19:52 So, a lot of it's going to be
1:19:54 the entrance into the building. So
1:19:56 with the new entrance, that's going to be fully accessible.
1:19:58 We are including a new elevator,
1:20:00 so that will provide access to
1:20:02 every floor in the building. So we are going to be
1:20:06 accessible through the main entrance,
1:20:08 the new main entrance. Okay, and then there's things like
1:20:16 door style handles. We'll do
1:20:20 accessible height. We're going to do
1:20:22 clear floor spaces, approaches for
1:20:24 every door, so that you can meet
1:20:26 that accessible requirement. Okay, thanks.
1:20:30 the last is just to touch on a couple other
1:20:36 talked a little bit about that. R-value,
1:20:38 standby power. Those are non-trivial
1:20:40 considerations. I'm an energy
1:20:48 We have a climate action plan.
1:20:52 from my perspective for us to
1:20:54 invest a significant amount of capital
1:21:00 They have a term called malinvestment
1:21:02 where you spend a bunch of money
1:21:04 that you're not going to get back.
1:21:08 a couple years later, you realize, hmm,
1:21:10 we didn't do the design or the standard,
1:21:20 a significant amount of our community
1:21:22 cares about it and it's also something we call for in the plan.
1:21:24 I know that's a whole extra
1:21:30 discussed so far or is that something
1:21:32 to be discussed in the future?
1:21:34 No, those are all factors that are considered
1:21:36 and incorporated. So even in the building
1:21:38 next door, continuous insulation,
1:21:40 rigid insulation around all the exterior walls,
1:21:46 continuous insulation on the outside
1:21:48 and the envelope to these old brick
1:21:50 buildings adds a great deal of
1:21:54 It's a job of work too, right?
1:21:56 As any owner of a wooden frame
1:21:58 100-year-old Lakewood home knows.
1:22:02 That's important and I appreciate the
1:22:04 attention to that. So thank you
1:22:08 communication on this and I'm sure there's more to
1:22:10 talk about but thank you for being
1:22:26 really only have an hour because
1:22:28 we do have finance committee following
1:22:32 So we'll try to get through
1:22:34 as much as we can. Please continue to send
1:22:36 questions, like there were a lot of good
1:22:40 things that you'd like the administration to cover
1:22:54 scheduling that this part would come first and then
1:22:56 we'll do that other part next
1:22:58 week, it's a little backwards into Vice President
1:23:02 being this far down in design
1:23:16 To that point I would love to see
1:23:22 renovation here would look like for the police
1:23:24 since that's our main reason
1:23:28 So that's something I'm hoping to see
1:23:32 With that we are about out of time. Thank you all
1:23:34 for being here and speaking with us
1:23:40 and reset for full council.
1:23:42 With that, no further business before Community of the Whole
1:23:44 without objection we're adjourned.